Mouthing

[Labyrinth]

Misty is about 1 year 5 months old now, and she still grabs at our hands with her mouth when she's excited. We always pull our hands away (have tried saying "OWW!" when she does it too) and take any attention away from her when she does this, but I don't remember it taking this long with our older dog. Are we not handling this right, or is it just going to take a while longer?

 

[lizzybeth727]

Some dogs are more mouthy than others, and some learn more slowly than others.

That said, some also get rewarded when you jerk your hand away.... dogs like chasing things, and she might enjoy chasing your hands.

 

[ihartgonzo]

1.5 years old is way past mouthy puppyness and bordering on... well... rude, pushy behavior.

Instead of pulling away and making noises (because obviously it's not effective), I would cross my arms and turn my back on her. Give her zero attention whatsoever, which includes making noises. Like Lizzybeth said, she could definitely see hands jerking away as a reward to her mouthiness, and an invitation to play. I would practice NILIF with her, and never, ever play with her when she invites it... you initiate all play, and you end all play.

I love playing bitey hands with my dogs. It's hilarious! And, I think it's great for teaching good bite inhibition. But they NEVER mouth my hands unless I initiate it, and their teeth never ever hurt me. They barely graze my skin. Playing controlled tug games with her might also help a lot. Here are some step-by-step instructions: Tug of War

 

[Klutze]

I've read that one of the best ways to help combat biting, is to act like a puppy would when bit too hard. They are going to yelp and probably try to leave the situation. You seem to have the right idea, but like ihartgonzo mentioned, you should take it one step further and stop all interaction immediatly.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Come to think of it, my dog was very mouthy when I first got her, and she was over a year old..... guess it's probably not all that uncommon.

 

[Angelique]

Some dogs are more mouthy than others, and some learn more slowly than others.

Sometimes I think it's just like kids who are more tactile than others, and also need to learn at their own speed.

Dogs don't have hands, so sometimes it's just their way of touching and communicating.

That said, Nick is "Mr. Bitey". His former owner had bandages on her hands from his puppy teeth. Fortunately, I got him when his adult teeth were coming in.

I did something different with him than I would normally recommend to an owner...I let him mouth me, but gave him (firm) feedback if he bit down too hard. I also did not play any biting games or roughhouse with him. I always touched him gently and calmly to teach him bite inhibition.

He gradually learned to match my pressure through Social Learning and modeling my gentleness.

He's still a little bit of a mouthy guy with me once in awhile and it's when I invite it, but it's all affection.

Just a different perspective.

 

[Doberluv]

I taught my puppies by way of social learning too. I was very sociable with them if they were exceedingly gentle in their mouthing and if their mouthing came anywhere near close to causing me pain or discomfort, I became instantly anti-social. I removed every bit of social interaction that they loved; looking at them, speaking to them, scritching them behind the ears. In fact, I became so anti-social, that I completely removed my self from the area for a full 30 seconds or so.

In addition, I would make sure the puppies had a chew toy to use instead of my hand. And when I'd walk away, I'd make sure they had their chewy so they'd learn that there are things they can gnaw on to their hearts content. After that firm, clear feed back, I'd give them another try. If they were gentle, I gave them straight information that being gentle worked to keep their person around, along with all the attention, play and even tasty treats.

What I didn't include in my social dynamics was the idea of me instigating every interaction. I know that's what a lot of people say to do. But I don't believe in the idea of dogs and dominace, dogs being so eager to take over if they're allowed to make any decisions etc...I don't instigate every game or invitation....just like when a friend asks me if I want to go for a hike or shoot some pool, I don't decline because I wasn't the one to instigate it. If I want to play, I'll play. If I don't, I'll say "no thank you." And that goes for human friends or dog friends.

Later on, once my pups would catch onto the need to be gentle in order to make it work....make me play, I'd then insert cues to start and stop the game. I didn't particularly want my dog coming right up to me or someone else and start mouthing or drooling all over them. So, I put it on a cue. Their way of inviting the game had to exclude immediate drool or tongue on me. LOL. They had to ask first, then maybe we'd play. They let me know if they want to play by play bowing, play growling and other funny social antics. If I want to play at the time, I'll get in on the game. If I'm busy, I'll just be friendly, but not join in and they then find something else to do. This is just the way it always is in my house and they've caught onto this social dynamic.

I'll hold Chuli on her back, cradled in my arm like a new born baby. (she likes this) And I'll wiggle my fingers in front of her face and she gets all silly, grabs my fingers in her paws and begins to take them into her mouth, but doesn't bite. She just pretends. It's funny. She immediately spits my finger away. She doesn't really want to bite at all....just pretend.

One thing that is very important in order for your dog to learn is absolute consistency. And yes, sometimes the "yelp" is construed by the dog as your joining in to play. Since that isn't working, I'd eliminate that and simply and immediately walk away every time and everyone who interacts with the dog must do the same. Come right back after about half a minute and give your dog another try. Repeat as necessary. When he mouths gently, go ahead and give him attention. And I mean EXTREMELY gently. The more tries you give your dog, the higher the odds that he'll hit on the right behavior where he CAN be reinforced. (where you WILL be sociable) So, don't do long, drawn out time-outs. They defeat the purpose of the time-out. What you're doing is demonstrating (socially) that hard, obnoxious mouthing won't work. But gentle will. Once he's getting good at it, if you don't want him instigating it by directly slobbering all over you, put it on a cue and invite him and don't reinforce by giving attention when he just comes up to you and starts mouthing you.

 

[ihartgonzo]

I really like your point about allowing a dog to politely initiate play, Carrie... I WISH more people could understand what that means and be consistent about it, but it's a very good point. It's unfortunate that most of the dogs I see/know who are allowed to initiate play do so in a pushy manner and don't take no for an answer. D: My dogs initiate play with me, too, but they've never been rude about it. I think what is most important is that the person decides if they want to play, without having a dirty/drooly frisbee literally thrown at their face (blargh) repeatedly if they decline.

 

[Doberluv]

It's unfortunate that most of the dogs I see/know who are allowed to initiate play do so in a pushy manner and don't take no for an answer.

Oh, I hear ya. I know someone with a dog who will NOT stop whining and pushing to have you throw the ball. Of course, needless to say, the reason the dog goes on and on and on and on is that the owner will ignore, (as I advised when asked what to do) but not ignore for long enough...just one or two moments before a probable extinction burst she gives in and throws the ball. So, the dog has learned just the way dogs learn....that "if I carry on and sob my eyes out, push the muddy, slimy ball against someone's leg, whine, bark, eventually, that ball WILL get thrown."

Tokie loves it when I grab some snow and pack it in the Chucket thingy. Then I heave the snow ball and she goes bounding through the drifts to get it. She got to a point where she was rushing me when I was still scooping up the snow. She'd bite at the Chuckit and then bark demandingly at me. I put the Chuckit away on it's hook on the porch for about half a minute and gave her another try. As long as she waited patiently, I'd throw her lots of snow balls. The second a loud, obnoxious bark came out of her mouth or she grabbed at the end of the Chuckit....game over. LOL. I know....very mean. But if she bounces around a little, looks at me expectently and looks like she'd like to play something, I'll go ahead and grab the Chuckit and play that game or play something else. That's a dog who can tend to get kind of demanding and pushy so I have to keep on my toes. But she and the others know that often times, when they come around and want me to do something, I'll not be able to respond and they'll give up quickly and go do something else. That's been their history so they've learned that I can be inconsistent....one time I might play and another time I might not and they're just going to have to deal with it. I'm consistently inconsistent that way. :rofl1:

The reason, I think they are capable of learning this (one time one way, one time another way, as long as you stick to your guns once you decline to play....every time) is the very reason that dogs can learn that it's okay to get on this couch but not that chair. The fact that they don't generalize all that well can be beneficial in some ways but can make some training more difficult. For example, when we teach a dog to heel in a quiet place, they may do well, but in a crowded, hectic place, not so well. Or if we teach them to sit, but always stand facing them, they may not get it that sit means sit when we're standing somewhere else or in a different position. So, when I tell the dogs, "I'm not playing now. Go away," they are capable of taking the hint even if another time, I tell them, "okay. I'm in."

 

[Labyrinth]

I should probably clarify her behavior. She's not actually biting, and it definitely doesn't hurt in the least. It's almost as if she's trying to lead my hand somewhere using her mouth. When she does this, I pull my hands away and ignore her. She only does it when she's very excited (which is usually when we come home), and at that point I try to ignore anyways because we're working on teaching her that we aren't going to say hello unless all four feet are on the ground. I remember our older dog has this same behavior as a pup, but it's been so long I just don't remember when she outgrew it. As for NILIF, we do make her sit before food, going out, getting in the car, etc.

I think we are on the right track, but just thought I'd check with others to see if there was something I was missing.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Oh, I hear ya. I know someone with a dog who will NOT stop whining and pushing to have you throw the ball. Of course, needless to say, the reason the dog goes on and on and on and on is that the owner will ignore, (as I advised when asked what to do) but not ignore for long enough...just one or two moments before a probable extinction burst she gives in and throws the ball. So, the dog has learned just the way dogs learn....that "if I carry on and sob my eyes out, push the muddy, slimy ball against someone's leg, whine, bark, eventually, that ball WILL get thrown."

Exactly!!! It's like dogs who are hardcore beggars. People think it's ok if they randomly give dogs a bite every once in a while when they beg, but they're actually doing a really good job of training them to focus even harder and beg more intensely because a treat could come at any moment! Both of my friends with Border Collies exhibit pushy behaviors, both mouthing and literally throwing toys at you to the point of nearly giving me a black eye a few times. Of course, they do so, because eventually my friends get annoyed and just throw it to stop the pestering. I try to explain that they are teaching their dogs to work for play time - the work being repetitive, annoying as HAIL behaviors. I hate to see pushiness and obsession like that, especially in dogs who are so intelligent and who desperately need limits and guidance. :wall:

I get that there is a fine line between being overly controlling and letting your dog be themselves while still being polite. For me, my dogs have never been rude or pushy towards me, because I do not stand for that crap. But I know that a lot of people cannot grasp that concept, and I'd rather try to help them by suggesting that they always initiate play period. You did explain it a lot better than I ever could, though!

Labyrinth, it's good that she's gentle about the mouthing and has bite inhibition... that makes it a lot easier! Good luck with it. Maybe all you really need is to train a rock-solid "leave it"?