mouthing&nipping

[pafla]

In the club where I work with dogs mouthing and nipping on human in any way is considered dominatiton and should allways been corrected from humans.I started working in that club 1.5 ago and my dogs are 8 years and 5.5 years old so we already had basic obedience and authority questions solved.

Rea my 5.5 year old is a shepherd mix who when we play and pet nips gently on me she never ever hurts me,she also mouths my arms or my face.I always considered this to be affectionate behavior.Tea just mouths arms.They also lick my arms,chin,neck and face.Now I have watched my dogs playing with each other and they show affection beetwen themselves the same way.Their is never an isssue of dominance beetwen them when they play like that.Will I have corected them as puppies for hard bites I never corected dogs if they were gentle.they dont do this to anyone else in household.But they are my dogs which means that I walk them,feed them and train them.Why are people so afraid of this behavior in dogs.Will licking can pass the minute the dog show teths it is called dominance.To me this just the way they show affection.If the dogs knows soft bite than I dont understand where is the problem.Of course my dogs know that I am in charge and will they love to keep me in shape with their antics they never actually challenge me physically.So what is your opinion of this? Is this dominance and if you think so why?Or is it just that somewhere in the back of most people heads is that story that dogs are just waiting the moment to take leadership away?From what I know about dogs they are more subtle than we and if something is brewing than you would get your fair shair of warnings from a dog.

 

[Maxy24]

I personally don't think mouthing and nipping is dominance period, it's usually playing (unless the dog is fearful or aggressive while doing it). Many of us favor the bite inhibition method of stopping nipping and mouthing. That's basically letting the dog mouth you until it hurts, as soon as it hurts you stand up and turn your back on the dog and ignore them. It teaches them to control their bite pressure. Dogs rarely try to dominate their owner, nipping is usually not dominance it is simply they have not been taught their manners. So if the mouthing does not hurt and you don't mind it then you can let it continue but just make sure if he meets people you either prevent him from doing it to them or tell them he likes to touch people with his mouth but he is not trying to bite so that they don't freak out when he does it.

 

[MelissaCato]

So what is your opinion of this? Is this dominance and if you think so why?Or is it just that somewhere in the back of most people heads is that story that dogs are just waiting the moment to take leadership away?

No, I don't think dominance. Dominance has a warning before a bite to show leadership. Alpha dog owners show warning signs to the dog wether vocal or visual, before a correction. This is how the dog learns "no", "wtf", "what's that", "drop it", "enough already". With dog dominance to a human, the warning visual or vocal is a challenge, it's up to you to then dominate your dog on the spot. Dogs will never want to lead a human, unless they are forced to hunt and feed themselves. JMO.

Here's an example of my dogs. I have high drive dogs that need to be trained in high drive, if you can't ALPHA in high drive don't ever get a Malinois, APBT or Cattle Dog. (a few others too but I'll just talk about my three for now)

3 high dogs, one ball, one me.. can get really dangerous at times, but it needs to be practiced for my needs. Here's what happens in my house, and I do this in the house because the house has rules of it's own. IE: lamps, plants, glass, ferret, cat that need protected and already established as such.

My dogs right now know all commands which make it easy at this point, all I really have to do is control the high. Granduer is fast outside with alot of land but limited in the house, so Sara and Nemos have this advantage over her and that's my main point of this, really. Ok, we've been playing for 3/4 an hour now and all the dogs are high at this point and focused on the ball and the ball only, which brings out the fight in all dogs. The dogs all bring me the ball which ever one gets it first, and I hold it longer than normal, Sara and Nemos pretty much just sit in a frenzy and wait, but Granduer wants to challenge me for the ball, this is what I need her to do to at this point. She doesn't sit, she just roams around me fast and barks like mad at the same time she's getting angry with me. I tell her to sit and she doesn't listen, doesn't care what I have to say, just wanting the darn ball. See where the problem is? OK, I raise my arm higher to throw the ball and she jumps up and full grips my arm, she got a verbal and let go, still challenging me and not listening to my sit command, she's doing what she wants still. See the problem? OK, I tell her to sit many many times and nothing, I go to raise my arm again and bam, she's got my arm, this time it's a louder correction with the whistle, now she know I mean business if she doesn't listen from this point on. Sara and Nemos sitting pretty and patient, I love them, I raise my arm again to throw the ball and Granduer jumps up, in the jump I command sit in a stern vocal and she instantly sits. That was my whole point to the entire ball in the house deal and now she knows. Once she decided to sit on command, stay is natural.

When she bit my arm it wasn't dominance over who is ALPHA, it was dominance over an object. So, I think alot of people maybe confuse dominance issues, ya really need to know the whole story to get the right idea. That's what's hurting in the BSL ... noone knows the truth behind the happenings, if ya care to know what I think.

This is just my opinion on the topic, I'm sure opinions will vary.

DO NOT try this at home. This is just MY example.

 

[pafla]

My dogs never mouth or nip anyone else.They know they are not allowed to do so.They show this behavior only when we play in house,but just play like giving them kisses and petting them,their is no toy.

I dont think this to be dominance,but most people in my club do and would told me I am mad to play that way with dogs.The club I work in favors alpha teories,NILIF,domination of dogs,and whole story about leadership.I do NILIF with my dogs,I spend time training them and playing with them,but I dont belive much in phyisicaly control of dog.I want my dog to listen command and know they have to do something because that is the way of things.I hate the whole concept that when dog doesnt listen he is dominant-chalenging you-climber for position-doesnt respect you mentality.It simplifies things and make people ruin they relatshionship with they pets without knowing what they did and what they lost in doing so.

I just wanted to hear whether in America things are different then in Croatia and whether people moved on from dominance story.And on your forums I saw this mentioned only as a problem behavior.

Tea is fear aggressive to people and humans but I know what triggers her behavoir.Play at home is just that and since she is small I usually lie down when playing with her that way both her and I know this is play time.Rea is well socialized and neither dominant nor submissive dog she is has high prey drive but only when it cames to other animals.She also loves the play stil off labs-a lot of mouthing,hanging to each other,chases -rough play is right up her ally but she can be gentle when she wants.When we play I am sitting and she likes to climb in my lap and curl up.But this is separate time reserved for house it is not behavior exhibit outside.I dont think people would be happy with that.They are most often even afraid or uncomfortable with Tea and she is 10 kg dog and while she doesnt particulary like humans to touch her if they do it calm manner and bribe with treats she is fine.Made whole proccess of socialization a lot more difficult.

Controling a dog in high drive is allways the most difficult but also the most important thing.For example since Tea is dog aggressive she will try to attack other dogs and stoping her is a lot harder if I dont nip the behavior when it starts.not to mention that Rea is always ready to join in the fun.But they know no means no and other dogs are not the fair game.Still a couple times when they started going on a dog it freaked other owner even when they stopped on command come back to me and done sit--stay with not even paying attention to other dog.it goes to point where other dog can sniff them and they want break position.to me this is leadership,when your dog in a middle of a drive stop what she is doing and does what you ask with 100% of concentraion on you.Not screaming on a dog or alpha rolls,just making him obey because you are the one who makes the rules.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I dont think this to be dominance,but most people in my club do and would told me I am mad to play that way with dogs.The club I work in favors alpha teories,NILIF,domination of dogs,and whole story about leadership.I do NILIF with my dogs,I spend time training them and playing with them,but I dont belive much in phyisicaly control of dog.I want my dog to listen command and know they have to do something because that is the way of things.I hate the whole concept that when dog doesnt listen he is dominant-chalenging you-climber for position-doesnt respect you mentality.It simplifies things and make people ruin they relatshionship with they pets without knowing what they did and what they lost in doing so.

Sounds like you need to find a new club! I totally agree with you, though - I suggest NILIF, but besides that I don't put a whole lot of stock in the dominance theories. I think a lot of that is just trainers trying to make excuses, when they don't really understand what the dog is doing.

I personally don't ever let dogs bite me, though, just because I fee like if they learn that this is a good way to play with me, they might decide it's a good way to play with little kids. Who scream. Plus it's annoying to me - many bites aren't QUITE too hard, but kind of on the border.... I say just cut them all out. But if your way works for your dog, and she doesn't bite strangers, then go for it.

Incidently, I had a client at one time from Croatia (I'm in U.S.), whose dog was named Tea. He pronounced it "tay-uh," not the American "tee." I think it's a very pretty name, is it common in Croatia?

 

[gale]

Our puppy will mouth and nip gently and if I don't say anything, it will escalate to her biting harder. I then either ignore her or distract her but she is not getting any better. It takes a lot of time I guess but I am tempted (and sometimes I do) to ignore/distract/yelp for even gentle mouthing sometimes.

 

[pafla]

Since their are three training clubs in Zagreb one who has just one basic obedience class,second who has I think five levels of basic obedience but after that you can work only rescue with dogs,and mine who has a lot of different activities for dog owners and they are the only training club who offers competative obedience and rally obedience classes in Croatia.Since I love working with dogs I honestly dont have a choice but to accept certain things.My trainer is ok and she lets us-members of the group to chose how we want to train are dogs.She will give suggestions but if you can do it other way she want make a problem of this.But things are not so good in basic obedience classes and condition to work in higher levels are all three basic obedience calsses and two exams-one from club,one from croatian cynologique organization.I avoided most of this because I came with older dogs who had a lot of obedience already done,but most people came with puppies and some things the club teaches are so called old school.

I belive in NILIF and that is one of positive things in club.But some of the others arent.You need a lot of patience to learn a puppy soft bite and it depends in the end about what you want from a dog.I love working with dogs but I also love giving them freedom to be just dogs in reasonible limits.That is the reason why I love my dogs to show affection the way they show affection to each other.That is the reason why I will teach a dog that jumping on me is acceptble if I allowe it,that chasing small animals is allowed if I say so.But it also demands for a higher level of control over dog.It is sometimes easier to teach a dog not to ever do something than to stop on command.But my opinion is that ultimately you get a higher level of control by being able to stop a dog in middle of doing something,then never allow it.The problem as I see it with always forbiding something is in a dogs instinct and that one time when a dog follows instinct and doesnt listen to no.Since my dogs are learned to mouth my arm without closing their jaws I belive they are in smaller risk of hurting person.They know not to close their mouths beyond just puting them around something.

Tea is often found in Croatia as a dog or person name,Rea is rare as human name but often found as dog name.Tea means wild rose,and Rea is after Rea Silvia the mother of Romul and Rem in legend they where the one who founded Rome.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

You know, most of the time you are just annoying or frustrating, but from time to time you make statements like the ones below that need to be corrected so that others who read here don't use your examples and get hurt in the process.

No, I don't think dominance. Dominance has a warning before a bite to show leadership. Alpha dog owners show warning signs to the dog wether vocal or visual, before a correction. This is how the dog learns "no", "wtf", "what's that", "drop it", "enough already". With dog dominance to a human, the warning visual or vocal is a challenge, it's up to you to then dominate your dog on the spot. Dogs will never want to lead a human, unless they are forced to hunt and feed themselves. JMO.

Your opinion is incorrect. MANY dogs are rank climbers. All you need to do is read the training section here or at any other forum to see that.

Dogs do not learn from warning signs. Dogs learn from timing, pairing, and reinforcement for behaviors, whether that reinforcement is positive or negative.

Many aggressively dominant dogs give NO warning before they hit someone with a bite, unless you count a split second glance and the forward motion of the corners of the mouth. Most untrained people miss these warning signs. Even experienced people can be grabbed unawares if they are not paying direct attention to the dog.

The mention of a domestic dog in the US hunting and feeding itself is nearly ridiculous. The vast majority of dogs would die if released on their own to take care of themselves.

Here's an example of my dogs. I have high drive dogs that need to be trained in high drive, if you can't ALPHA in high drive don't ever get a Malinois, APBT or Cattle Dog. (a few others too but I'll just talk about my three for now)

Can you explain how you "ALPHA in high drive?"

3 high dogs, one ball, one me.. can get really dangerous at times, but it needs to be practiced for my needs. Here's what happens in my house, and I do this in the house because the house has rules of it's own. IE: lamps, plants, glass, ferret, cat that need protected and already established as such.

My dogs right now know all commands which make it easy at this point, all I really have to do is control the high.

Can you explain "high dogs" and "controlling the high"? What does this mean?

Granduer is fast outside with alot of land but limited in the house, so Sara and Nemos have this advantage over her and that's my main point of this, really. Ok, we've been playing for 3/4 an hour now and all the dogs are high at this point and focused on the ball and the ball only, which brings out the fight in all dogs.

Your dogs are HIGH? What on earth are you talking about? How does being focused on a ball (in prey drive I presume) make dogs "high"? Do you mean in high drive? If so, which drive?

The dogs all bring me the ball which ever one gets it first, and I hold it longer than normal, Sara and Nemos pretty much just sit in a frenzy and wait, but Granduer wants to challenge me for the ball, this is what I need her to do to at this point. She doesn't sit, she just roams around me fast and barks like mad at the same time she's getting angry with me.
I tell her to sit and she doesn't listen, doesn't care what I have to say, just wanting the darn ball.

Why would you allow the dog to control the situation in this manner?

See where the problem is?

Oh, I do indeed. It is in the next sentence.

OK, I raise my arm higher to throw the ball and she jumps up and full grips my arm,

If a Malinois put a full grip on your arm you would be in the hospital.

she got a verbal and let go, still challenging me and not listening to my sit command, she's doing what she wants still. See the problem? OK, I tell her to sit many many times and nothing,

If you wish for the dog to sit, why would you repeatedly mark various random behaviors with the word SIT?

I go to raise my arm again and bam, she's got my arm, this time it's a louder correction with the whistle, now she know I mean business if she doesn't listen from this point on.

Yes, brilliant. You have now taught the dog that it is okay to jump up and grip your arm, that is needs not obey on the first command, and that your commands mean nothing unless and until you repeat them in a loud voice. WTG.

Sara and Nemos sitting pretty and patient, I love them, I raise my arm again to throw the ball and Granduer jumps up, in the jump I command sit in a stern vocal and she instantly sits. That was my whole point to the entire ball in the house deal and now she knows. Once she decided to sit on command, stay is natural.

Ok, I dont' follow the stay is natural after she has learned the sit on command. Can you elaborate a little on this?

When she bit my arm it wasn't dominance over who is ALPHA, it was dominance over an object.

This is RIDICULOUS. She was overtly challenging you for the ball. YOU.

So, I think alot of people maybe confuse dominance issues, ya really need to know the whole story to get the right idea. That's what's hurting in the BSL ... noone knows the truth behind the happenings, if ya care to know what I think.

What does mouthing have to do with BSL?

This is just my opinion on the topic, I'm sure opinions will vary.

DO NOT try this at home. This is just MY example.

 

[MelissaCato]

You know, most of the time you are just annoying or frustrating, but from time to time you make statements like the ones below that need to be corrected so that others who read here don't use your examples and get hurt in the process.



Your opinion is incorrect. MANY dogs are rank climbers. All you need to do is read the training section here or at any other forum to see that.

Dogs do not learn from warning signs. Dogs learn from timing, pairing, and reinforcement for behaviors, whether that reinforcement is positive or negative.

Many aggressively dominant dogs give NO warning before they hit someone with a bite, unless you count a split second glance and the forward motion of the corners of the mouth. Most untrained people miss these warning signs. Even experienced people can be grabbed unawares if they are not paying direct attention to the dog.

The mention of a domestic dog in the US hunting and feeding itself is nearly ridiculous. The vast majority of dogs would die if released on their own to take care of themselves.



Can you explain how you "ALPHA in high drive?"



Can you explain "high dogs" and "controlling the high"? What does this mean?



Your dogs are HIGH? What on earth are you talking about? How does being focused on a ball (in prey drive I presume) make dogs "high"? Do you mean in high drive? If so, which drive?



Why would you allow the dog to control the situation in this manner?



Oh, I do indeed. It is in the next sentence.



If a Malinois put a full grip on your arm you would be in the hospital.



If you wish for the dog to sit, why would you repeatedly mark various random behaviors with the word SIT?



Yes, brilliant. You have now taught the dog that it is okay to jump up and grip your arm, that is needs not obey on the first command, and that your commands mean nothing unless and until you repeat them in a loud voice. WTG.


Ok, I dont' follow the stay is natural after she has learned the sit on command. Can you elaborate a little on this?



This is RIDICULOUS. She was overtly challenging you for the ball. YOU.



What does mouthing have to do with BSL?

What eva you say RR.

 

[MelissaCato]

I just wanted to hear whether in America things are different then in Croatia and whether people moved on from dominance story. And on your forums I saw this mentioned only as a problem behavior.

Read RR's post ... now you know why.

 

[adojrts]

You know, most of the time you are just annoying or frustrating, but from time to time you make statements like the ones below that need to be corrected so that others who read here don't use your examples and get hurt in the process.



Your opinion is incorrect. MANY dogs are rank climbers. All you need to do is read the training section here or at any other forum to see that.

Dogs do not learn from warning signs. Dogs learn from timing, pairing, and reinforcement for behaviors, whether that reinforcement is positive or negative.

Many aggressively dominant dogs give NO warning before they hit someone with a bite, unless you count a split second glance and the forward motion of the corners of the mouth. Most untrained people miss these warning signs. Even experienced people can be grabbed unawares if they are not paying direct attention to the dog.

The mention of a domestic dog in the US hunting and feeding itself is nearly ridiculous. The vast majority of dogs would die if released on their own to take care of themselves.



Can you explain how you "ALPHA in high drive?"



Can you explain "high dogs" and "controlling the high"? What does this mean?



Your dogs are HIGH? What on earth are you talking about? How does being focused on a ball (in prey drive I presume) make dogs "high"? Do you mean in high drive? If so, which drive?



Why would you allow the dog to control the situation in this manner?



Oh, I do indeed. It is in the next sentence.



If a Malinois put a full grip on your arm you would be in the hospital.



If you wish for the dog to sit, why would you repeatedly mark various random behaviors with the word SIT?



Yes, brilliant. You have now taught the dog that it is okay to jump up and grip your arm, that is needs not obey on the first command, and that your commands mean nothing unless and until you repeat them in a loud voice. WTG.


Ok, I dont' follow the stay is natural after she has learned the sit on command. Can you elaborate a little on this?



This is RIDICULOUS. She was overtly challenging you for the ball. YOU.



What does mouthing have to do with BSL?

:hail::hail::hail::hail:
Agreed, it was entertaining, funny, sad, scary and to the uneducated dangerous.

 

[lizzybeth727]

You know, most of the time you are just annoying or frustrating, but from time to time you make statements like the ones below that need to be corrected so that others who read here don't use your examples and get hurt in the process.

Your opinion is incorrect. MANY dogs are rank climbers. All you need to do is read the training section here or at any other forum to see that.

Dogs do not learn from warning signs. Dogs learn from timing, pairing, and reinforcement for behaviors, whether that reinforcement is positive or negative.

Many aggressively dominant dogs give NO warning before they hit someone with a bite, unless you count a split second glance and the forward motion of the corners of the mouth. Most untrained people miss these warning signs. Even experienced people can be grabbed unawares if they are not paying direct attention to the dog.

The mention of a domestic dog in the US hunting and feeding itself is nearly ridiculous. The vast majority of dogs would die if released on their own to take care of themselves.

Can you explain how you "ALPHA in high drive?"

Can you explain "high dogs" and "controlling the high"? What does this mean?

Your dogs are HIGH? What on earth are you talking about? How does being focused on a ball (in prey drive I presume) make dogs "high"? Do you mean in high drive? If so, which drive?

Why would you allow the dog to control the situation in this manner?

Oh, I do indeed. It is in the next sentence.

If a Malinois put a full grip on your arm you would be in the hospital.

If you wish for the dog to sit, why would you repeatedly mark various random behaviors with the word SIT?

Yes, brilliant. You have now taught the dog that it is okay to jump up and grip your arm, that is needs not obey on the first command, and that your commands mean nothing unless and until you repeat them in a loud voice. WTG.

Ok, I dont' follow the stay is natural after she has learned the sit on command. Can you elaborate a little on this?

This is RIDICULOUS. She was overtly challenging you for the ball. YOU.

What does mouthing have to do with BSL?

Perhaps if this were worded differently (less defensively), Melissa would've thought you actually wanted answers, and would've responded. I'm just sayin'....

 

[MelissaCato]

Ok, I'm bored.

Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers
You know, most of the time you are just annoying or frustrating, but from time to time you make statements like the ones below that need to be corrected so that others who read here don't use your examples and get hurt in the process.

I did say don't try this at home.

Your opinion is incorrect. MANY dogs are rank climbers. All you need to do is read the training section here or at any other forum to see that.

Sure, many dogs are rank climbers, but there is no "rank" climbing with a human as far as I'm concerned. Humans rank humans, dogs don't rank humans. If you think dogs should rank humans .. well I'll hush.

Dogs do not learn from warning signs. Dogs learn from timing, pairing, and reinforcement for behaviors, whether that reinforcement is positive or negative.

I'm gonna take this as your opinion and mention I feel otherwise hence my example with Granduer

Many aggressively dominant dogs give NO warning before they hit someone with a bite, unless you count a split second glance and the forward motion of the corners of the mouth. Most untrained people miss these warning signs. Even experienced people can be grabbed unawares if they are not paying direct attention to the dog.

I can understand in the docked Rotty why you think this way, but I disagree for most breeds.

The mention of a domestic dog in the US hunting and feeding itself is nearly ridiculous. The vast majority of dogs would die if released on their own to take care of themselves.

You under estimate dogs. I see maybe like Cresteds and hairless breeds in the cold and those not able to live in elements not surviving.. but to say a vast majority is an insult.

Can you explain how you "ALPHA in high drive?"

Refer to my example post on Granduer.

Can you explain "high dogs" and "controlling the high"? What does this mean?

Refer to my example post on Granduer.

Your dogs are HIGH? What on earth are you talking about? How does being focused on a ball (in prey drive I presume) make dogs "high"? Do you mean in high drive? If so, which drive?

Refer to my original post to understand this .. it is a "high" past play drive, past prey drive and concidered locked on drive.
In other words she is that "high" she is frenzied with extreme degree of strength and energies for her prey (in this case the ball)
This isn't a spontanious behavior, this is a behavior surpressed by the handler most often because of fear of handler control over the dog. I prefer to control my dogs and not have it be concidered spontanious behavior. That's when people get seriously hurt. Granduer will be competing 2008 she's 10 months old now, if I wait to dominate this "behavior" she will miss out on the National Levels her first year. If I choose not to train with this "behavior" she will be a danger to society and my home on a spontanious date and time
and will altimatly be locked on "defence drive" when is does happen. There is good in this too once controlled, just ask a Decoy.

Why would you allow the dog to control the situation in this manner?

I know my dogs threshold. I knew what to expect. My timing was perfect, I used it to my advantage.

Oh, I do indeed. It is in the next sentence.
If a Malinois put a full grip on your arm you would be in the hospital.

Ya think? Maybe that depends on the dog and WHO is ALPHA at the time of bite. I love her !!

If you wish for the dog to sit, why would you repeatedly mark various random behaviors with the word SIT?

I wanted her to sit. What should I have said? Throw her a cookie maybe?

Yes, brilliant. You have now taught the dog that it is okay to jump up and grip your arm, that is needs not obey on the first command, and that your commands mean nothing unless and until you repeat them in a loud voice. WTG.

Yada Yada Yada Ya wanna play ball with her?

Ok, I dont' follow the stay is natural after she has learned the sit on command. Can you elaborate a little on this?

Sure, please refer to my "locked on" opinion, then this ... she knows all her basic, advanced and Schutzhund commands, but it's the level of "high" that has her dazed into not listening, responding and or willingness to obey. Her drive has her on Pluto so to speak and not aware of anything but her and her prey. Once she heard the whistle on the second round she knew the tables would turn against her if she bit me again. She a very very smart dog and willing, once she thought for a minute and listened to my sit command her focus is now under my control. When she sat down, she looked around at Sara and Nemos sitting pretty with a comfortable pause.
She now sits pretty like Sara and Nemos till I through the ball.

This is RIDICULOUS. She was overtly challenging you for the ball. YOU.

I don't think so, or I would have been in the hospital like you mentioned. She grabbed the first thing that moved while focused on the ball. She never layed eyes on me.

What does mouthing have to do with BSL?

Why does it always have to be your way?

Nemos went through this same training when he was a bit younger, Sara too. After I'm satisfied 100% I have Granduer controlled in locked on drive, she can then safely play ball at the dog park.

There's also other advantages to this I see with Granduer on a competitive level, but I'll stop here.

 

[MelissaCato]

Shucks I shouldn't have used that color, sorry.
But, I do want to mention, if anything I said about Granduer scares you ..
I hope you think 3 times on a Malinois for just a family pet.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I absolutely believe that there's a dominance level in dogs that slips over into their interactions with humans.

"Dominance", in essence, means "I want to make the decisions, I want to run the show". A dog that uses force - growling, stiff body language, biting, etc. - is definitely showing a dominance level and if they're allowed to continue they WILL run the show and have the humans obeying them instead of the other way around (which is basically "out-ranking" the humans). I've seen it hundreds of times in classes and behavior consultations. I don't think it's a conscious decision on the part of the dog. They simply do what works for them, and a dog with a strong personality will try dominant actions and then continue to use them if those dominant actions allow them to get what they want (reinforcing the behavior).

I don't allow mouthing with my dogs. I start when they're young and I show them that it's not allowed, and that generally takes care of that. I have a couple of reasons for not allowing it. One is that I do a lot of public training and demos, and my dogs have to be completely safe in public. Some people interpret mouthing as biting and I never EVER want to put my dogs in a position where someone thinks they've bitten a human. It's absolutely important to me that my dogs be strong, stable ambassadors for their breeds and for dogs overall, and no competition or ribbon or title is more important than having them be safe, solid animals that can interact with people.

While I agree that mouthing can be a form of affection, it can also be a way of pushing the boundaries (depending on the personality of the dog). I have German shepherds (German and Czech lines) and chows, and they have very strong personalities. If I allow mouthing then it can easily escalate into more pushy behavior and I don't want that. They need to understand that I have the right to set boundaries (including NO mouths) and they have to stay within those boundaries. This is one of the reasons why my five bitches live together peacefully.

My dogs have a lot of play and prey drive and it's my responsibility as a dog owner to control that drive. I use it in training when I can, but always within limits. It's scary and sad that anyone would allow their dog to leap up and do a "full bite" on them because they're excited about a ball - and not just ONE bite, but TWO and then an attempt at a third?? Yikes!! This is not the signs of a good training regime. It has nothing to do with schutzhund training or French ringsport or whatever the excuse is - it has to do with an owner with a lack of control over a dog that shows a high amount of willingness to bite a non-protected arm. Schutzhund already has a bad reputation because of the protection phase, and descriptions of dogs like this particular one illustrate clearly why there are many places that won't allow a "protection trained" dog.

I hate to see this on such a public forum - it only fuels the whole "dogs are mean" concept and does nothing to promote good leadership or intelligent training.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

My dogs have a lot of play and prey drive and it's my responsibility as a dog owner to control that drive. I use it in training when I can, but always within limits. It's scary and sad that anyone would allow their dog to leap up and do a "full bite" on them because they're excited about a ball - and not just ONE bite, but TWO and then an attempt at a third?? Yikes!! This is not the signs of a good training regime. It has nothing to do with schutzhund training or French ringsport or whatever the excuse is - it has to do with an owner with a lack of control over a dog that shows a high amount of willingness to bite a non-protected arm. Schutzhund already has a bad reputation because of the protection phase, and descriptions of dogs like this particular one illustrate clearly why there are many places that won't allow a "protection trained" dog.

I hate to see this on such a public forum - it only fuels the whole "dogs are mean" concept and does nothing to promote good leadership or intelligent training.

The disjointed inane remarks of Melissa Cato are quite disturbing. The fact that she has no understanding of what is actually happening with her dog is even MORE disturbing.

 

[adojrts]

Shucks I shouldn't have used that color, sorry.
But, I do want to mention, if anything I said about Granduer scares you ..
I hope you think 3 times on a Malinois for just a family pet.

Cato;
We're not scared of the breed, what is terrifying is someone like yourself owning and 'training' such a breed. An ego and limited knowledge is such a dangerous thing in hands like yours. You prove that everytime you post.
It is people like you that does so much damage, when there are trainers and responsible owners working so hard to educate and keep these types of dogs AWAY from people like you.
I would be willing to bet that you are not welcome within the 'protection dog' world, that your attempts to be within those circles have come up short.
Those people would have 'tried to educate you' , only fall on deaf ears. I would expect that you would have been labelled quickly and then either ignored or avoided.
I sincerely hope that your 'methods', don't end up with your child or someone else being hurt.

 

[MelissaCato]

It's scary and sad that anyone would allow their dog to leap up and do a "full bite" on them because they're excited about a ball - and not just ONE bite, but TWO and then an attempt at a third?? Yikes!!

I didn't allow it, I expected it, then corrected it. A dog needs to piddle in the house before a correction. I did mention her drive had the best of her.. please refer to my "locked on" para.

...it has to do with an owner with a lack of control over a dog that shows a high amount of willingness to bite a non-protected arm.

Hummmm, the lack of control was the dog it's self in motion, the control of that motion came from my correction. How do you know my arm was non-protected?

I hate to see this on such a public forum - it only fuels the whole "dogs are mean" concept and does nothing to promote good leadership or intelligent training.

Please tell me a more "intelligent" way of correcting her behavior without her behavior it's self in motion? Keep in mind she's a "dog in training" not a trained dog at 10 months old.
As I see it, you would rather have her do this spontaniously in public, rather than the owner having "control of their dog".

The disjointed inane remarks of Melissa Cato are quite disturbing. The fact that she has no understanding of what is actually happening with her dog is even MORE disturbing.

The disturbing remarks are from that of people who think this behavior should be spontanious and not controlled in a high drive dog, a Malinois. Pit Bulls don't lock jaws, their drive is locked. But you knew that right?

We're not scared of the breed, what is terrifying is someone like yourself owning and 'training' such a breed.

Ya all cronies said the same thing about my Falcon only he was a deformed ugly crap mill dog with no future. Yall are on a roll.

An ego and limited knowledge is such a dangerous thing in hands like yours. You prove that everytime you post.

The only ego here is ya cronies and your limited knowledge of thresholds in high drive. You prove that everytime you post.

It is people like you that does so much damage, when there are trainers and responsible owners working so hard to educate and keep these types of dogs AWAY from people like you.

I think it's people like yall who have no idea, it's clear you know nothing about high drive dogs, and it's clear yall are the ones to do the damage to these breeds with your ego's. Your lack of control in the dog world is what's getting people injured or mauled to death, not mine. BSL depends on people like you.

I would be willing to bet that you are not welcome within the 'protection dog' world, that your attempts to be within those circles have come up short.

Ya think? Yall said the same thing about Falcon in the Show ring. I guess this is new game to ya naw unst.

I sincerely hope that your 'methods', don't end up with your child or someone else being hurt.

You really don't hope that, only I do.

I'd like, given my original post on Granduer, someone to tell me how to correct this behavior before it happens? Anyone. Other than surpressing it due lack of control of the dog. Talk ta me.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I didn't allow it, I expected it, then corrected it. A dog needs to piddle in the house before a correction. I did mention her drive had the best of her.. please refer to my "locked on" para.

This is so basically wrong on so many levels it is just appalling.

One should REWARD a dog for what is correct, not set it up for failure in order to correct it. No one can refer to your disjointed nonsensical post for anything.

Hummmm, the lack of control was the dog it's self in motion, the control of that motion came from my correction. How do you know my arm was non-protected?

What control? There WAS no control. There was a bouncing dog ignoring multiple commands and jumping up to grab your arm in order to control the game that was going on.

Please tell me a more "intelligent" way of correcting her behavior without her behavior it's self in motion? Keep in mind she's a "dog in training" not a trained dog at 10 months old.

Well that would involve having the dog on a leash and doing actual real reward based training.

As I see it, you would rather have her do this spontaniously in public, rather than the owner having "control of their dog".

Where did this random non sequitur come from? No one in their right mind would allow any dog to perform this uncontrolled jump/grip behavior, much less wish to have their dog do something like this SPONTANEOUSLY in public.

The disturbing remarks are from that of people who think this behavior should be spontanious and not controlled in a high drive dog, a Malinois. Pit Bulls don't lock jaws, their drive is locked. But you knew that right?

Where did any of this come from? No one said anything about this behavior being "spontaneous" except you? Where did the jaw locking comment come from? Surely no one with any clue about dogs believes that any dog has a "locking jaw?"

Ya all cronies said the same thing about my Falcon only he was a deformed ugly crap mill dog with no future. Yall are on a roll.

What cronies, Melissa? Is it that anyone who disagrees with your nonsensical dangerous posts is a "crony"? How did your poor little Crested who was killed by a roaming dog on your property become a part of this discussion?

The only ego here is ya cronies and your limited knowledge of thresholds in high drive. You prove that everytime you post.

Okay. Let's talk about drives then. Why don't you explain in your own words about thresholds in high drive, and what sort of training you are doing with your Malinois puppy?

I think it's people like yall who have no idea, it's clear you know nothing about high drive dogs, and it's clear yall are the ones to do the damage to these breeds with your ego's. Your lack of control in the dog world is what's getting people injured or mauled to death, not mine. BSL depends on people like you.

So now you are lumping how many people into this category of knowing nothing about high drive dogs? Now we are responsible for dog bite injury deaths and BSL? Are you NUTS?

Ya think? Yall said the same thing about Falcon in the Show ring. I guess this is new game to ya naw unst.

Your poor little Chinese Crested was never destined for any show ring, Melissa. I wish he were still here so he could be a good pet for you, but with all due respect, he would not have made it in ANY show ring, Breed or performance. He had way too many issues with breed type, conformation, and structure.

You really don't hope that, only I do.

I'd like, given my original post on Granduer, someone to tell me how to correct this behavior before it happens? Anyone. Other than surpressing it due lack of control of the dog. Talk ta me.

How you control this is you keep a PUPPY THIS AGE on leash when you are working it. You train an inducive retrieve using operant positive methods to keep from diminishing a dog's drive. You teach stays and gradually increase your demands on the dog for self control as it learns and matures.

You CERTAINLY don't have 3 dogs out at once all clamoring for the ball with the puppy leaping up grabbing at your arm out of control while you yell SIT SIT SIT SIT.

 

[MelissaCato]

What eva yall say.