Molosser Breeds

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by CharlieDog, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Okay folks, I've been researching most of the breeds called Molossers. Not a TON, yet, but enough to know that I'd like to know more, but also enough to know that I don't know which breed I should be looking for/at and therefore no idea what I should be looking for in a breeder. I've been looking at the Central Asian Shepherd Dog, but I'm not sure if that's the dog I should be looking at or not. I can't really seem to find much out

    I want to find a dog that is protective, but not aggressive. Who understands that my sister and her children are not threats, and that the dogs next door are not for eating. I understand that that takes socialization, obviously. I do NOT want a dog that is going to grow up to be aggressive to Ozzy and Enzo and my family's dogs. I want to be able to take the dog places with me. I want a dog that is going to understand that just because someone they don't know walks into the backyard does not mean they are a threat, however, if they ARE a threat, I'd like the dog to react appropriately.


    So.. I don't know, this is all probably jumbled up and the breed with the temperaments and characteristics I want doesn't really exist, lol, but I've been trying to find a protective, not aggressive breed. And while I adore GSD's, they are a bit of a hit and miss with the protection instinct, even in the working lines.
     
  2. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    That's an unrealistic expectation. Even a person can't assume someone who walks into the yard without being invited is not a threat until they have a chance to check them out.

    Everything else you describe I get from Kharma. I like the fact that no one comes into our space without being challenged and stopped, though.
     
  3. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I meant, and I should have explained that better, that if they are being aggressive and threatening, that the dog will react appropriately.

    Is that realistic? What about expecting the dog to react with the right level of aggression to a threat? For instance, someone drunk and loud and acting threatening, but does take more than a growl to get off the property? Or is it more realistic to expect one level of aggressive/protection instinct in the dog, with no or little difference in the threat level. Provided there IS a true threat there?

    I'm really trying to learn what is a realistic and fair expectation first.
     
  4. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    My GSD is like that. Kenya will give a couple of warning barks if she hears someone coming in, if i tell her its ok or they act non threatening, she will continue to bark, run back into the house and alert somebody about this "problem" and run back and forth

    We had a man banging on the gate screaming obsenities (he was angry at someone.. but had the WRONG house)and kenya went for him.. it was a dif bark and a dif approach. she knew he was a threat and she was going for him, snarling, and going for the gate. the guy backed off immediately. i know if he wouldve opened the gate it wouldve been over

    I honestly think GSDs are perfect for what they do. I never taught kenya any of this.. i she knows. strange thing is,normally she is very shy and sweet and reserved. but mess with her family or our property and shes totally different.
    ive never met a GSD that wasnt like this actually, other than extreme abuse cases
     
  5. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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  6. Buddy'sParents

    Buddy'sParents *Finding My Inner Fila*

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    How you define aggression/aggressive behavior in the instances you describe?
     
  7. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I guess aggression would be posturing, to growling to actual physical force. I think I'm defining it wrong, but I mean that I'd rather a dog that is comfortable being both defensive of their family, and not always on the offensive and looking for a fight, but one that will finish it if necessary.

    I don't think I worded any of it rightly in the beginning. I'm trying to say that I don't want unwarranted aggression, and most aggression in dogs that I see is unwarranted for the situation. I want a dog that is able to be aggressive, without taking it too far, and in the wrong situation. That if I've raised the dog and socialized it properly, I say "It's okay" and while the dog may not relax or turn into a love bug, will at least understand that this person is not a threat at the moment.

    Now, I know you and Renee both have Fila's, and while I love Bella and Kharma, I don't know if a Fila is right for me.

    Now, I know that there is a difference between the Caucasian Ovtcharka and the Central Asian Shepherd, and I know that one of them is a lot more dog aggressive and same sex aggressive than the other.. I'm currently thinking that it's the Caucasian that is more prone to over the top aggressive behavior and dog aggression than the other.. is that right?
     
  8. pitbullpony

    pitbullpony BSL Can Be Beaten

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    Re: the CO vs CAO; yes; sort of.
    That can come down to independent lines; but for the general context; your CO is drop of the hat eat the intruder; while the CAO gives much more warning. Bark, bark, bark, growl, growl, posture, tooth butt; maybe bite if pushed.

    I'd be careful with the Boerboel; I own one and love her to death; but they are an interesting and developing breed. The body type and temperament type varies from line to line; breeder to breeder; some of the very hot ones are not good with other dogs; especially dominant ones.

    My Boerboel, Dora, is awesome with little dogs; even if they choose to hang off her lips; she couldn't care less; dogs with a dominant stance; she aggresses to. She gets along well with the pup we are fostering; she gets along well with my Central Asian; Kim and has done quite well during her heat period. Dora is very mellow with people around the property; only when someone touches our property does she aggress and she's not over the top; she barks and alerts when the people are on my property; but has no issues when they are around the property (we visually can see our back neighbours and we live next to a road allowance). She likes to meet new people; but she is very suspicious to the out of the ordinary; which is nice. She is wonderfully handler compliant; in fact even when she is being a retard towards another dog; it takes very little reaction from me to get her to stop; unfortunately this d.a. attitude came to light while she was in season; so I didn't have a lot of time to work on it; but it is something that I think I can get her to tolerate; when she does aggress; it is always on a loose leash; she is not lunging across the room to get the dog. Her temperament is much more South African than many dogs bred in the U.S.; so you could find a dog with a lovely friendly temperament; the breeder of the puppy I'm fostering; does produce those friendly; sweet Boerboels with guardian attitudes. Some of the U.S. dogs have to be taught to bite; many simply posture; bark. The puppy I'm fostering comes from Centurion Boerboels in Georgia; and she is a sweet dog; thank goodness she's moving on.

    My Central Asian; Kim; she's a different bird. She notices every - single - thing - that - moves - everywhere - she - can - see; and barks at them all! Kim has a very high threshhold for suspicion; she hasn't found an enemy yet; dog or man. This is not typical for the breed and not typical for the line; her mom and dad are good guard dogs; Kim loves everyone. None of her siblings are like this; so she's just a fluke. From what you are describing; I think the Central Asian would suit you well; even if someone came in the yard unannounced; you should have enough time to get them out before they were harmed; and better yet; since the Central Asian guards the property line so well; and barks so much; no one would likely try to get in the yard. They are hairy; they blow coat; they are not into pleasing their owners; but they can be obedience trained if socialized young. They are generally good with the smaller beings; other pets and children and as a pack dog should be good with your other dogs; and many of FoxFire Farms dogs do play in dog parks and do go to doggy daycare.
     
  9. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Anko was extremely friendly to EVERYONE, and she was one of those abuse cases. :p Also, every SAR trained shepherd I have met has thought every human on earth is the greatest thing ever created. Most other GSDs I've seen would put on a show or take a cheap shot, but if the aggressor were to fight back at all they'd be hiding somewhere.

    There are plenty of shepherds who can do what the OP is describing, but not all of them by any means.

    And I agree with Renee about expecting a dog to know a threatening intruder from a non threatening intruder. It's just not reasonable. Build a good, HIGH fence, put up signs, and let your dog announce itself. Introduce your dog to family and welcome friends that you want it to be familiar with. If you have neighbor kids that you worry about coming in the yard, have a good fence, give them a talking to, and I'd have them over to give the dog treats daily for a while.
     
  10. Izzy's Valkyrie

    Izzy's Valkyrie Very Food Agressive

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    Here's my random thread related question. Is is absolutely necessary for the owner of a large molosser such as a Tosa or Fila to be physically stronger than their dog full grown? Wouldn't proper training and socialization assure the owner, no matter what size, that they have control of their dog in any situation?
     
  11. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I said the threatening from the non threatening wrong.. I meant if they appeared to be no harm at first, and then changed their action, the dog would react appropriately to the threat. Or is that still unrealistic?

    Izzy, I worked with GSD's that could physically knock me down and drag me off without realizing it, IF they weren't paying attention to me, or I didn't have that dogs trust and respect. I think that it's more about respect, in that regard.
     
  12. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I would think that in a guardian breed, the mere presence of an intruder on their turf would be considered threatening.

    What kinds of non-threatening vs. threatening signals would the dog be looking for? Carrying a weapon? Body posture? How would it know a weapon carrier from a package carrier?

    Izzy, Strider is an 80 lb sight hound and can drag me (120 lb human) around. I doubt there is any human who could muscle a molosser around. Not even The Governator.
     
  13. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I would think that threatening would be getting loud, angrily waving their hands around, stepping forward aggressively.. I know that coming onto the property *could* be considered a threat by a guardian breed, (more than likely IS) but there is a difference in someone coming into the backyard looking for a chat, to someone coming into the backyard looking for a fight.

    I guess maybe that is pretty unrealistic.. But someone can be acting all nicey nice to get close to you before they try to hurt you.. I gather that the dog would understand once the person got too close and started acting aggressively vs. someone who just doesn't understand personal space.. The dog probably wouldn't like either one, but one would prompt the dog to act and the other would probably prompt the dog to be looking to the owner for direction.
     
  14. Bunny82

    Bunny82 New Member

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    Izzy, I am 5'2 and barely a 100 lbs, when we get our Fila there is no way I will ever be physically stronger and even if I was it has never been my style to control a dog in that manner.

    Instead I prefer to be in harmony with my creatures working with them on training and building a strong foundation of mutual respect.
     
  15. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    It's not a realistic expectation at all. Kharma is far stronger than just about any human when it comes right down to it. She's damned near impervious to pain as well. What holds her is the agreement we have inherent in our relationship.

    To put it into perspective . . . I see little 50 pound APBTs pulling well in excess of a ton of weight at pulls.
     
  16. Izzy's Valkyrie

    Izzy's Valkyrie Very Food Agressive

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    That's what I thought. I was reading through the molosser breed site and one of the requirements for keeping a Tosa Inu (Which I now find verrrrrry interesting :D) was to be physically stronger than the dog. It seemed like an out and out impossibility so I just had to ask. I was thinking Renee was a body builder to be controlling Kharma :rofl1:
     
  17. pitbullpony

    pitbullpony BSL Can Be Beaten

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    Hmmm - big dog control

    Controlling a big dog is no different than controlling a large horse - convincing them you are god and there is never a time they will get to do anything without you; and leverage ;)

    I think you are asking a lot of any dog; and putting yourself in for a dangerous situation.

    Dora doesn't like the gas man/uninvited people coming into the back yard to read the meter. She is all hackles and barking and that's fine; I got a guardian dog to keep strange people out of the house and yard. She is fine when invited people are here; very good in fact; but she doesn't like it when they cross her boundaries; she's very protective of me, but listens when I tell her to leave it.

    I would suggest if you can't prevent every Tom Dick and Harry from wandering into your yard; if you hang out with a group of truly idiotic; death wish friends; you may want to stay away from a guardian breed. Yes if you own a guardian breed you may not be able to tolerate rough housing from friends; dogs of a suspicious nature may not get that your buddy grabbing you in a headlock and wrestling you to the ground because your team just beat his; and they generally won't put up with scenes like that.

    Dogs may or may not understand your scenario of SallyTooClose vs. BobtheRapist; and quite frankly that shouldn't be the dogs decision; it should be yours. You can desensitize a dog to the point that every thing that goes on is hunky-dory; but then what use is the dog to you when someone grabs you and hustles you off quietly and the dog just thinks they are playing.
     
  18. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Well, I really was for years :) Seriously. Routinely benched 250 and squatted 450 and kept 16.5 inch biceps and 28" thighs. Along with a 23 inch waist that I will never see again, lol!
     
  19. Zhucca

    Zhucca Lab Love

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    What about a Tibetan Mastiff? I'm not sure how much drive you want intact, however the Tibetan mastiff (although unfortunately..) has been majorly westernized and the guardian instincts are less upfront than a CO or CAS. However, that being said when looking at any LGD I think asking a dog not to be threatened by a stranger entering it's territory, threatening or not is asking way too much for dogs bred to fend off such intruders. The tibetan mastiff is can be same-sex dog aggressive, though. I think someone already mentioned but the CAS is best dog wise. If you want more drive there are breeders in North America who have sharper dogs, and europe can become a option as well.

    Tibetan Mastiff Information, Tibetan Mastiffs, Tibetan Mastiff Breeders, Tibetan Mastiff Puppies, Tibetan Mastiff Pictures, Photos, Tibetan Mastiff Info .com

    American Tibetan Mastiff Association

    I made a thread awhile ago and Planet Molosser and pitbull pony gave some helpful posts. It's mostly about the socialization aspect of LGD's
    http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t87088-2/
     
  20. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I didn't mean I wanted the dog to be okay with everyone walking in the yard, rather I meant that I would like a dog who isn't going to try to eat everyone who comes into their territory.. Yard or house. Barking, snarling and carrying on is fine (it goes on with Oz on a regular basis, he just doesn't understand the concept of our yard vs. the sidewalk across the street :p) I just wouldn't want a dog that (in the daylight hours anyway, at night, anyone in the backyard is fair game..) is going to immediately launch an attack. Our yard is securely fenced in, but that doesn't mean someone can't scale the fence, or open the gate.

    I completely understand that it would be pointless to desensitize the dog to every type of rough housing interaction the humans may have, but I am not someone who normally gets rough housed about by my friends (and if any of them ever head locked and wrestled me to the ground over SPORTS, they are in for a world of hurt, LGD or NOT.)

    I've met a few show bred Tibetans actually, and they didn't really seem to be much of a guardian breed. Now, granted that was a show strain. They also seemed a lot more... drooly and disinterested in their handlers than I'd like a dog to be.

    I really think that the CAO is better for what I want, mostly because Oz is a jerk, and while I do much to curb his more theatrical "I'm the boss!" tendencies, he still tries to put on a show every now and then (with other dogs, not people) and a LGD could probably eat him without pausing by the time it's two if it has natural DA tendencies. I could never own a male APBT. At least while I cohabit with this merle terror of mine.

    I'd like to rescue a CAO, but I'm afraid that even if it's a female adult, Oz would show his ass and she'd spend the rest of her life trying to eat him, whereas a pup growing up with him would just accept that that's how he is and ignore it.

    Because they never forget do they? If someone or something aggresses the first time they meet them, they never do forgive and forget that. Or am I off base (I have been known to be wrong, and I've had to change my thinking a couple times since this thread started as well...)
     

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