Moderation

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by Psyfalcon, May 7, 2007.

  1. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Dog, Dog, Cat, Fish
    Location:
    Oregon
    This comes in part from all the show vs working threads... the issue with show dogs that always crops up is the overdoneness of some breeds.

    Why don't people breed to moderation? Why does it always seem that people think more extreme is better?

    Giant, fat labs, Irish Setters with 30lbs of fur, Bulldogs, etc. I don't think its written anywhere in the standard of the setter that it should have the most fur possible.

    With the exception of some breeds (mostly sighthounds) I can't see how some moderation couldn't help things.

    Note: This is presented in all seriousness, and not intended to incite another 40 pages of showdog vs working dog.
     
  2. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,963
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    I don't think my breed counts, but...

    I don't think papillons are that overly extreme or anything. True, the bigger ears, generally the better as far as showing goes, but moderate dogs do just fine in the ring too. My boy is certainly not very extreme as far as ears go and he champed very very quickly.

    [​IMG]

    But then again, it's not a working breed.
     
  3. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Dog, Dog, Cat, Fish
    Location:
    Oregon
    I do rather like those, at least for the small furry types!

    You have mentioned the push for the "butterfly" head effect, although, thats rather minor in the grand scheme of things.
     
  4. showpug

    showpug New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2005
    Messages:
    5,218
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    3 pugs and a bulldog
    Location:
    Oregon
    In all honesty, there are many, many good breeders out there that do breed for moderation.
     
  5. IliamnasQuest

    IliamnasQuest Loves off-leash training!

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,083
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    In both of my chosen breeds - chows and shepherds - I do believe that moderation is very important. The overly heavy chows with the wrinkled faces and the overly angulated shepherds that nearly walk on their hocks are both wrong to me.

    But that doesn't mean the BREEDS are wrong, of course. There are breeders who are extreme and there are breeders who truly have the good of the breed in mind instead of whatever fad is currently hitting the show ring. I took a year to find my youngest chow and she is VERY moderate, and yet she comes from long lines of champions and health tested stock.

    I have never heard a truly justified reason for breeding to extreme.

    Melanie and the gang in Alaska
     
  6. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    19,665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    5 Dogs
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Home Page:
    With chihuahuas, the latest trend is to breed for the "super" appleheads... the ones with the extremely short snouts, and extremely large heads. A lot of breeders are coming to find out that teeth are not coming in (majorly overcrowding), as well as more cases of hydrocephalus (water on the brain) and extended periods of reverse sneezing. These super appleheads are also causing bitches to have more c-sections upon delivery (can't fit thru the birth canal). I've found this to be more so in Europe.

    Most American champions are still bred with moderation, and have what I consider to be "perfect" appleheads.
     
  7. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,963
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    Yeah the only real exaggerations as far as trends go here is to go for the 'butterfly effect' as you put it. Aka- a wide, straight blaze. Not the most important thing to me. It causes a lot of mismarks to be born as well- the blaze gets so wide there is white around the eyes. Many breeders won't touch a solid headed dog even though they are technically perfectly fine specimens of the breed. A straight blaze is just 'preferred'. This is more prevalent in England than it is in the US which is one of the biggest debates in the breed. Most people are also trying for bigger ears, though that's not as big a problem. We're lucky we don't have more differences.

    Someone tell my solid headed girl she doesn't look like a butterfly:
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Dog, Dog, Cat, Fish
    Location:
    Oregon
    If you insist, little dog, you do not look like a butterfly, but only because I'm 20x the size of you! I actually love that look, but I think its the mask rather than a lack of blaze. What can I say, I love black masks on just about anything...

    Its good that some breeders do not get caught up with it, but looking around, I see more exaggeration than moderation, at least in some breeds? I could just be going insane... I've been looking at Carolina Dogs and Dingos the last few days!
     
  9. Sunnierhawk0

    Sunnierhawk0 Feelin' Froggy? Jump!

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    2,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    5- 2 Rottweilers, 1 Australian Cattle Dog, 2 Betta
    Location:
    DFW, Texas
    Home Page:
    In my breed, Rottweilers, I am expereicing thing problem as we speak. My bitch is 22.5 inches at the shoulder, and weighs 87ish pounds. Standard is 22-25, and yet many people come up to me and ask me "aww how old is the puppy".... She is perfectly in standard, but people are so use to seeing the big overdone bitches and males they dont realize that the standard says "MEDIUM to LARGE" dog... no where does it say extra large. Medium- Large is rarley something people think of when they think Rottweiler. Luckily we have not been passed up too much in the show ring because of her correctness and movement. It does irk me, because I have the old Rottweiler magazines where the correct size is present, and its really sad people have forgotten what a *true* Rottweiler should look like.
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,963
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    I love black masking too.

    Oh we have the size problem too. A few years ago it was in to have dogs on the smaller end of the standard, but now we've apparently gotten 'too small'. Judges have been complaining, so it's back up to bigger dogs again. It's annoying because mine are small. When will people finally understand an 8 inch dog and an 11 inch dog are just as nice as each other? 12 inches is a slight fault but still... shouldn't we be looking more at type and structure? It was annoying because some judges will not place an 8 inch dog and some will not place an 11 inch dog.
     
  11. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,135
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    two canines
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    Same thing has happened in afghans. Friend has a pointed male, but after multiple shows in the past year can't get more points on him. He's lovely, but he just sits in the lower reaches of the height standard, and bigger is 'in' right now.

    So much so, dogs over the freaking standard are the ones pointing... She put his show career on hold and is back to showing some of her younger ladies waiting to see if this will go back to in standard dogs winning.
     
  12. Bahamutt99

    Bahamutt99 Dafuq?

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    High Ridge, MO
    Home Page:
    All the breeders I respect strive for moderation and performance, without losing breed type. Unfortunately, exaggeration appeals to the amateur.
     
  13. IliamnasQuest

    IliamnasQuest Loves off-leash training!

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,083
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I always find it interesting when things go outside of the standard and yet are allowed to win. In chows, they're supposed to be a medium sized dogs and yet you see ones that are 70 pounds and up. The standard states "never so massive as to outweigh his ability to be active, alert and agile." And yet we'll see ponderous dogs that are so heavy in bone and skin that they can't move well and can't breathe well - and some dingbat judge will award them best of breed.

    I have two show dogs here who are pointed in conformation. The older one has five points and is spayed and no longer shown. She is nicely square and compact and weighs just 38 pounds. The other is not quite as square but is beautifully built for power and endurance and weighs 52 pounds. All of my chows have open/moderate faces. And all of them breathe VERY well (although the 15 year old gal tends to snore when she's sleeping now .. *L*).

    I find it sad that my agile, athletic, nicely built young bitch who has an exquisite temperament will get beat pretty regularly by the other bitches showing who are fatter, less athletic ability, heavier faces and not nearly as good of a temperament. You often see the dogs grouped as to how much heaviness is in the face .. heavy ones in front, moderate ones behind. While my girl will achieve all sorts of things - rally titles, obedience titles, tracking, agility, therapy dog - she is considered less of a chow because she's not heavy enough to please the judges. I will probably go back to Canada next year and work on a Canadian Championship (she has 2 points already) as her breeder is Canadian and wants that on her. Hopefully the Canadian judges are not as brainwashed as the American judges.

    In the meantime we'll keep working on the performance titles!

    Melanie and the gang in Alaska
     
  14. Amstaffer

    Amstaffer New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Milwaukee WI
    In this day and age we (humans and especially in the USA) are all about having the Biggest, Flashiest etc..., we are incredibility competitive. This shows up in are dogs just like our cars, houses, jewelry etc... :confused:
     
  15. whatszmatter

    whatszmatter Guest

    We had a discussion on this with a SV judge on why you'd find Larger dogs put up for champions when they were "oversized". His explanation that if everything else was equal, they would put up larger dogs at times to preserve the overall size in the breed.

    I do NOT breed, but have heard many times that if you breed medium to medium, after a while you'll start to see smaller generations of offpsring. I do not know if this is true or not, but he stated that they needed to, on occassion to keep the "larger" dogs in our pedigrees to keep the breed as a whole within the standard. But he did state that too many people were breeding large dogs for the wrong reasons. and too many times people interpreted that to mean they could breed their 120 pound GSD.

    Myself, I love a male GSD about 80 lbs or so, and a female about 60. That usually gives me that strong atheltic, tireless worker.
     
  16. casablanca1

    casablanca1 Happy

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    1,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    We got curs and hounds, and a baby rabbit named Cu
    Location:
    Pidjun Haller, with ma uncle Palmer
    I don't think moderation comes naturally to humans; we're extremists by nature and only civilization changes that, gives moderation and self-restraint a chance. I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the people who own and/or breed extreme dogs are also lacking in other civilized behaviors like good sportsmanship, social responsibility, basic manners, etc.
     
  17. IliamnasQuest

    IliamnasQuest Loves off-leash training!

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,083
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    I'm not as familiar with the GSD standard as I am the chows - showing GSD's in conformation never really interested me (I like the German style dogs). I can see the reasoning there, but I'm not sure that it's completely logical. A good breeder may breed to a dog on the high end of the height standard in order to balance out lines that are becoming smaller. But to point a dog that is outside of the standard just seems hypocritical. What's the use of having a written standard if the judges can then arbitrarily decide when to "break the rules"?

    My last two shepherds - both female - have been around 65-70 pounds and that's a nice size. My first one was 105# at prime and it was too big - he broke down younger than he should have. Trick is turning 11 in a few days and is still going strong.

    In the chow conformation world, there is no actual weight restriction - they do have heights listed but still say that the overall dog is to be taken into consideration. That gives people the leeway to step outside of the suggested heights. The problem we see in chows is that people breed for such extreme heavy bone and heads that the dogs become overdone to the point of barely able to move and difficulties in breathing and seeing. To me, breeding to that extent is downright cruel.

    Melanie and the gang
     
  18. Boemy

    Boemy New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,481
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That's just not right. :(
     
  19. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,135
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    two canines
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    My breeder sees it in cockers. Standard calls for coat in moderation, often dogs with excessive coat get put up. Or dogs with extreme plush muzzles.. Really long necks, odd things.. Standard calls for a compact sporty dog. So shes trying her damnedest to keep her lines compact and sporty, shows them, they get seen, but they don't always do well when it's not what's 'in'.

    I want to try showing my future boy.. but between hearing the cocker and afghan politics. Ugh.. Saddens me..
     
  20. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,963
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    We are supposed to have a 'moderate neck'. But there are some dogs that I like to refer to as giraffe dogs... It's horrible, but that's what they look like to me.
     

Share This Page