Luna's first puppy class

[NicoleLJ]

If you look for insults where none are intended you will find them.

Trust me if I was to insult you you would know. I actually find it amusing, so I wasn't insulting you. Just pointing out that either 'a' you are not as confident as you seem, or 'b' you are being really funny. Since I tend to take people at their word... its funny

If you only every have two choices in things then that is black or white thinking. Since nothing I posted was funny, at least not to me and since I am confident in what I am doing and how I train dogs, I do not see how I fall into either catagory. I am not a black or white type person when it comes to things. There is always a grey area.

 

[Beanie]

Opening your mouth and putting anything out there is to open yourself up to criticism, regardless if you are looking for it or not. Especially on this forum. It's also hard to "just vent" about anything here because everybody is a bucket full of advice and really wants to help, so even when somebody posts "I'm just venting" they still get advice... that's just how it is.

Piece of advice: if you decide to let a topic drop, let it drop. Walk away. Right now you are basically arguing that you aren't going to argue, by which you are still arguing. If you don't feel the need to defend yourself, then stop doing so. It may be the internet but it's not really much different than real life: turn around and walk away, and THAT is how you end an argument.

 

[Dekka]

Sure there are grey areas. But either you are wiling to try new things and be open minded, or you are not. So we have different senses of humour, good thing as variety is the spice of life. I find this thread really funny. As in a big grin on my face at times. ETA Beanie just pointed out WHY its funny. And just like any joke, once explained looses much of teh funneh.

And some things ARE black and white. Ie yes or no questions.

 

[Beanie]

ETA Beanie just pointed out WHY its funny. And just like any joke, once explained looses much of teh funneh.

Sorry. D= I ruin EVERYTHING. DANG IT.

 

[Dekka]

its ok.. I still think you are cool Beanie But don't do it again lol :rofl1:!

 

[Fran101]

I just don't understand why you are getting so upset.
You posted a thread... people commented. This is what this forum is about.
Nobody attacked you personally, nobody said you weren't a good trainer....and I certainly don't think anybody insulted you in any way.

I have a similar update thread, about service dog training no less. I post updates and people comment with questions, advice or just to offer criticism.
I HAVE CONFIDENCE in my choice of trainers/program, so I answer questions the best I can and even when criticisms are tough or questions are presented that I don't want to answer, I deal with it lol sometimes I deal with it better than other times.
but i've noticed if you answer with grace/knowledge instead of the ever so common "OMG YOU GUYS ARE SO MEAN! I'M DONE WITH THIS!" and the like we see so often on this forum..
your confidence and knowledge in your choice will shine through instead of the drama.

and instead of always being on the defensive, maybe try being a little more open to learning a thing or two. No matter how great of a trainer you are.. new things are always happening and it never hurts to at least be OPEN to new ideas.

just my 2 cents.

 

[Danefied]

Because every time I step up I get attacked for my position, or it gets twisted, or I get accused.

My whole life has been one big episode of people telling me how to think, feel, act, live and so on.

You can turn this into insults all you want(which is exactly how I took you last paragraph) but I will not lower myself to it.

Seriously, loose the martyr mantra. You're not the only one who had a tough life, and you're not the only one who has drama in their life.

YOU are the one starting drama by jumping on every single post in this thread like it was a personal attack (they weren't).
YOU are the one who choses to come on to a heavily PR leaning forum and throw out darts like "I don't believe in training with food" and "I'm going to have a discussion with the trainer about why we should be allowed to correct our dog" (even though everyone else isn't - IOW, you should be given special treatment and special privileges because ???)

Why do you care if we all discuss (mainly for the lurkers and guests, often of which there are 3x or more as many on chaz as members) why its a bad idea.

THIS. It is a terrible idea to correct a fearful dog for reacting out of fear. That's how you suppress behaviors and how you end up with WORSE problems than what you started with. I see it ALL THE TIME.
I found Chaz through google, and if ONE person pays attention to the folks warning against correcting a fearful dog, its worth it.

 

[Fran101]

Seriously, loose the martyr mantra. You're not the only one who had a tough life, and you're not the only one who has drama in their life.

YOU are the one starting drama by jumping on every single post in this thread like it was a personal attack (they weren't).
YOU are the one who choses to come on to a heavily PR leaning forum and throw out darts like "I don't believe in training with food" and "I'm going to have a discussion with the trainer about why we should be allowed to correct our dog" (even though everyone else isn't - IOW, you should be given special treatment and special privileges because ???)



THIS. It is a terrible idea to correct a fearful dog for reacting out of fear. That's how you suppress behaviors and how you end up with WORSE problems than what you started with. I see it ALL THE TIME.
I found Chaz through google, and if ONE person pays attention to the folks warning against correcting a fearful dog, its worth it.

One more time.. but this time it is posted with more passion

 

[MandyPug]

Fran when i saw this on your tumblr, i knew you were going to find somewhere to use it on here haha.

 

[Brattina88]

Fran when i saw this on your tumblr, i knew you were going to find somewhere to use it on here haha.

love it :rofl1:

 

[Dekka]

I love it, I found a few new fun ones, but you will have to wait till the right threads to see them.

 

[Jynx]

unfortunately I have had a bad experience with a purely positive class in the class I took, purely positive = purely permissable, anything goes. And when you have an instructor who allows other dogs/puppies to do whatever the heck they want to the other dogs/puppies in the class, well you can end up with a puppy who previous to this, was confident/outgoing, to one that goes on the defensive

Not saying it happens all the time, but it happened to me, I yanked my gsd out of it, replaced her with my 'seasoned' aussie, who absolutely loved the class, of course she wasn't a puppy either.

And of course it was up to the instructor to be able to control the class, (this was a seasoned instructor/obed competitor yet her own dog was a whacko with no manners) so it wasn't the "method" it was the instructor and lack of structure..

 

[Danefied]

unfortunately I have had a bad experience with a purely positive class in the class I took, purely positive = purely permissable, anything goes. And when you have an instructor who allows other dogs/puppies to do whatever the heck they want to the other dogs/puppies in the class, well you can end up with a puppy who previous to this, was confident/outgoing, to one that goes on the defensive

Not saying it happens all the time, but it happened to me, I yanked my gsd out of it, replaced her with my 'seasoned' aussie, who absolutely loved the class, of course she wasn't a puppy either.

And of course it was up to the instructor to be able to control the class, (this was a seasoned instructor/obed competitor yet her own dog was a whacko with no manners) so it wasn't the "method" it was the instructor and lack of structure..

Of course there are bad classes out there - regardless of method. I took classes with a compulsion trainer in CO who was absolutely wonderful, and I still apply a lot of what he taught me. I took one compulsion class with a local trainer and walked out in disgust after the 5th lesson and didn't return. Our local petsmart classes are all PR and a total joke, while my current trainer is PR but also no-nonsense and she gets the job done and done well.

But I don't get the feeling that is the case here. Its a class that from what has been posted, appears to be run well, no one is having issues, but the clients are asking for special treatment, for the rules of the class to be different for them.

 

[Linds]

All I could think about in this thread was Traveler's puppy classes. I HATED the trainer. I pretty much sat there, gritted my teeth, tried to control my eye rolling, did my training in the corner my own way regardless of what she said and made sure I had someone to rant to when I got out. I was seriously the worst student ever.

Except I wasn't. Traveler was lightyears ahead of the others and I ended up helping the other owners before and after class because the trainer was just that bad. But I didn't take the class to be told how to train, I took it so that Traveler got to work around other dogs, people, kids and in a club environmen tand I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I guess I just don't really see what's so wrong with adding a little of your own flavor in. I typically would be likely to at least try what the trainer is saying but if it isn't working for you and your dog I don't see what the harm of changing it up is. I also feel like if the trainer was advocating for correction and the student decided not to participate in that then the "Just listen to them and try it" wouldn't be said quite as loudly and strongly.

But whatever, it could be because I typically do more of a club setting than a private trainer that I don't look at it as wrong (or at all really) to change things up and kinda do my own thing while still getting advice, knowledge and help from the trainers. Though for a new sport that you haven't done before or often I could understand being a little more apt to listen. But this is a puppy class

 

[Dekka]

There is a difference though in chosing to correct less in a class the uses both corrections and food rewards, and wanting to use corrections in a class that does not. (or using food in a class that does not)

You say the trainer was really bad, that sucks. But its a serious disruption if someone is off doing things that I have told the class not to do. I have had this, never again. If someone wants to deviate from the class guidelines they will not be allowed to sign up. If they try anyway they will be asked to leave. This person upset the other people in the class, and it was distressing to watch their dog from my own point.

 

[Linds]

Well, I know when I dropped in on a poorly run positive only class I used some corrections and it didn't bother anyone, no one noticed to be honest. Most people were busy with their own dog. But, that was that class and it's not going to be the same in everyone.

There's a difference between being disruptive (eg: off doing recalls when you're supposed to be doing sits) and training focus, stays, sits and so on differently than the teacher said. Yeah, if you specifically asked the class not to do something and there is someone doing exactly that then I can totally see how that would be really annoying and rude. But if it's just someone doing something a little differently or adding their own spin to it without disrupting the lesson I don't see what the big harm is. Especially since she said she was going to talk to the trainer first.

But again, I personally didn't sign up for puppy class to learn anything from the teacher. I paid for the enviorment anything extra would just have been a nice bonus

So pretty much I think it really depends on the trainer and the kind of situation it is. a

 

[adojrts]

How sad and always scary when someone says 'my methods work' and they are unwilling to learn, so very limiting. Not only to themselves and to their dog/s. And for the record, from the few lines the OP stated about how to train agility, NOT. Very, very clear they don't know.
Isnt it amazing, when someone dismisses the success of a trainer that has competed to a National level (btw because I suspect you don't know, to compete at Nationals you actually have to qualify to compete there) and doesn't have an open mind to actually learn from such a trainer, then turn around and even remotely compare themselves to that trainer??? Amazing.
Agreed as already pointed out, a wise, experienced and knowledgable trainer does NOT give corrections to a non confident, stressed or reactive dog. Good grief, nothing like building and increasing a negative association for the dog which of course makes it worse or shuts them down.

Newsflash: There is NO such thing as purely positive training, doesn't exist. Anyone saying things like 'purely positive' really needs to do some research and learn some very important FACTS. To the OP, if you give your dog/s a correction........that is positive. In simple terms, positive means to give, so that can be a correction or a reward. (just a little fact there)

 

[Danefied]

I guess I just don't really see what's so wrong with adding a little of your own flavor in. I typically would be likely to at least try what the trainer is saying but if it isn't working for you and your dog I don't see what the harm of changing it up is.

To my mind there is a big difference between "changing it up" a bit and going against the entire philosophy of the class.
Example: One of the tricks to teach a nice tight, straight, front is to initially teach the dog to go through your legs, then just close them and you get a great front. This works really well, I've seen it work really well. However, even though I'm 5'9, this would most definitely NOT work with my great danes. (Though it might be quite amusing to watch a few attempts.) So of course, I would change it up a bit.
But when the entire principle of the class is positive reinforcement training, I find it disrespectful to come in and say you're going to do things your own way.
Like Dekka said, if it were a class where the trainer trains without treats, I find it equally disrespectful to say "oh, well I'm going to use treats anyway."
But then, I'm also a teacher by profession, so I'm clearly biased towards the instructor's POV.

I also feel like if the trainer was advocating for correction and the student decided not to participate in that then the "Just listen to them and try it" wouldn't be said quite as loudly and strongly.

I completely agree. But then I don't see anything wrong with a forum having a particular bias or emphasis. There are plenty of all breed forums out there where PR is not appreciated. Just as there are forums where BYB are tolerated and others where they're not. As long as its done respectfully, I see no issue with a forum having a certain "climate"

 

[Dekka]

The person who was disruptive wasn't off doing major things. They refused to use food rewards. I finally convinced them not to correct their dog. They still did, but not in my class. (you could tell this dog had some harsh obedience training, which wasn't surprising since I knew where this dog and owner took obed classes)

She tried to do toy rewards and praise with her dog. The dog was too shut down to care. It took so much of my time and effort to try to get her and her dog through the exercises. It was painful. Some of the other clients came to me and asked why her dog looked so sad, and why she always seem angry with her. The owner of the dog WAS very upset because the class was progressing and she wasn't. You could see she wanted to correct the dog.

It was stressful for all involved. Never again.

She also refused to have the dog work on her right side, even after I explained you can't do agility with your dog always on your left.....

 

[Linds]

I completely agree. But then I don't see anything wrong with a forum having a particular bias or emphasis

Ok good, as long as the hypocrisy is understood. I just thought from some of the comments that they made it sound like wasn't a matter or method and I didn't and don't buy that.

The person who was disruptive wasn't off doing major things. They refused to use food rewards. I finally convinced them not to correct their dog. They still did, but not in my class. (you could tell this dog had some harsh obedience training, which wasn't surprising since I knew where this dog and owner took obed classes)

She tried to do toy rewards and praise with her dog. The dog was too shut down to care. It took so much of my time and effort to try to get her and her dog through the exercises. It was painful. Some of the other clients came to me and asked why her dog looked so sad, and why she always seem angry with her. The owner of the dog WAS very upset because the class was progressing and she wasn't. You could see she wanted to correct the dog.

It was stressful for all involved. Never again.

She also refused to have the dog work on her right side, even after I explained you can't do agility with your dog always on your left.....

Sounds like it wasn't a good mix and no one was happy. So yeah, but that isn't going to be a situation that always is going to happen. Very very situational.

We had a guy that wouldn't use any reward, corrected like crazy and it was just a mess. Both him and the dog were crazy frustrated. Never had any issue with him being in the class though. Wasn't disruptive, didn't bother anyone other than the head shaking and the desire to just grab the leash from him. So I really think that it's going to depend on the class, the teacher and everyone else. Which again is why she is going to ask

And again, the OP is taking a puppy class.....for the environment. This isn't her going to bitework for the first time and dismissing everything the trainer has to say.

I can see depending on the situation how it could be very annoying.....but I also see (and have experienced) how it's can be a none issue