Loose leash walking

[Samsonyte!]

Not sure if this should go in this forum or the training forum but I need some help with loose leash walking with Wilson.

Basically Wilson is a very observant dog and not all that food motivated. He used to be absolutely petrified of anything and everything, but thanks to medications and tons of work we have gotten to a point where we can walk in most places and he'll remain what I consider relaxed for him. He still likes to watch everything but he doesn't respond with fear, more curiosity, and I can get his attention on me.

The reason that this is causing an issue with training loose leash walking is that being invested in the environment, which for him involves pulling, is more rewarding to him than any treat that I've tried. I can get him to offer focus and briefly return to my side but he honestly just doesn't care about the treat enough to stay there and he wants to return to looking/pulling/sniffing. As long as we aren't moving he'll offer focus forever, but for some reason watching me while moving next to me is hard for him. And honestly, I don't care if he watches me, I just want there to be visible slack in the leash and I want him to stay at my side in a loose heel position when asked.

I use a wonder-walker harness (pretty much the same thing as the sensible harness?) but I really prefer for him to actually walk on a loose leash regardless of what he's wearing, and would like to have him on a flat collar eventually because I feel like I can communicate better with him through a flat collar than a harness.

I've tried the stop moving method, turning around and going the other way, having a cookie stuck under his nose as he walks with me, but I actually think that he just finds pulling rewarding?

Is there anything you guys can tell me that I haven't tried yet? He's more toy motivated but it gets him riled up and I'm not sure how I'd use it to train LLW? Suggestions for the most amazing high value treats that are even better than hot dogs and freeze dried tripe and better than pulling on the leash? Anything I'm missing here?

TIA

 

[Southpaw]

Pulling is SUPER rewarding!!

The obvious answer is that pulling can just never work. You never move forward if he's pulling. Yeah it sucks I use penalty yards, once Sawyer starts to zone out and the leash is about to tighten, I start walking backwards. And naturally he'll start to follow me because what other choice does he have, BUT I do not start moving forward again until he actually acknowledges me and shows me he's paying attention. Once he looks up at me it's yay good boy! we move a step forward and THEN I'll pop him a treat because he's obsessed, but with a toy motivated dog I'd totally use that here too.

If I don't have food on me - which is much more typical - I let him tug on his leash. So if he's doing a great job I'll engage him play, we'll tug as we walk past other dogs or people bike riding, and pretty much any time he wants to tug on it I let him. It's not uncommon for him to be playing with his leash for the majority of the walk. But he loves it and it keeps him focused and I want to build value for hanging out next to me. So yeah you can totally use a toy in place of food if that's what's motivating to him. You have to figure out your rules though and what's comfortable for you if that's the route you want to go, for example Sawyer will let go/stop when asked.

I give him opportunities to sniff too. That can be a powerful reward if that's what the dog wants to do... oh hey you did a great job walking to the corner, go ahead and sniff and pee on the bush for a couple moments and then we're off again.

That's my LLW in a nutshell. The biggest thing is consistency and that he never ever gets to continue moving forward when there's tension in the leash.
Don't be discouraged though, I hate teaching LLW... I think most people probably do and it takes a lot of patience and time especially if the dog has any history of being allowed to pull. Any method you choose to go with, you gotta stick with for a while before you can determine if it's working or not.

 

[Samsonyte!]

Lol the fact that I'm super inconsistent and have absolutely no patience for training LLW definitely contributes. There's also certain situations where I just don't care enough and we walk off-leash most of the time too. Really the only time he's on a leash is if were in a store or somewhere else where there's people, or to get to the off-leash place (which is where I don't care if he pulls).

I've never really thought of using tug as a reward for it but I think I'll try that tomorrow and see if were more successful with that. And I really need to kick myself in the butt and just suck it up and be patient and not let him get away with sometimes pulling, at least for now while we still work on it.

 

[Southpaw]

It's tough. I don't like when dogs pull but it's also my least favorite thing to work on lol because I am usually not in the mood, I just want to finish the walk or get to the park or whatever. I suppose you could differentiate and allow him to pull in a harness, but on a flat collar pulling is a no no... maybe? Then you could potentially not have to worry about it if you don't want to be in training mode, you'd just walk him on a harness in situations where you don't care about pulling.

I used a toy a lot for Juno. Not as easy to work with but kept her much more engaged.

 

[Samsonyte!]

Hm thanks I'll give the toy a shot and yeah I could do the harness thing. It's kind of what I've been doing already, just using the front-clip harness when I don't feel like training loose leash walking but then half the time I forget I was working on it when he's on a flat collar anyway

So I guess it's really my fault he doesn't walk well on a loose leash. He's just so fast to pick up on everything else that he's spoiled me so I usually don't have to work this hard at teaching him something.

 

[Elrohwen]

LLW is so hard because you have to be so consistent. And for a determined puller that takes so much patience.

I had some success with Watson using penalty yards. I introduced it with food on the floor, and he had to keep a loose leash. It took him a couple minutes before it clicked. Obviously he just didn't understand loose leash as a criteria. He can understand walking next to me, and sort of understand going slower, but he didn't understand keeping the leash loose until we used penalty yards. It didn't fix everything of course, but I think it gave him a piece of the puzzle that he was missing before.

I do most of his walks with some sort of management tool (usually the prong, but sometimes the Gentle Leader or a harness) and only use a flat collar if I'm going to work on LLW. I also know that his arousal level in some situations is going to be way too high to focus on LLW, but for daily walks and things he is much more low key and I can enforce LLW.

For Hazel I'm trying really really hard to be patient and do it right from the start. She has natural LLW skills, so it's just about being consistent and enforcing that by not letting her pull ever, rather than teaching it to a determined puller. Still, my husband lets her get away with pulling all the time (even though he thinks he's training LLW). It's frustrating.

 

[pinkspore]

I like to heavily reward tension on the leash, which seems counterintuitive but has actually worked very well. The moment they hit the end of the leash I run backwards while making happy party noises. "Yaaaay! You did it! Good dog!" Of course they have no choice but to follow me, and if they don't want food they'll at least get some petting. Sometimes I use a clicker and click hitting the end the leash.

The end result is a dog that thinks leash pressure means they should check in with me, which means I can ask for attention by twitching it slightly. It also seems to make them stop pulling and be mindful of how close they are. So far the only dog this didn't work on was my former roommate's weird little terrier mix who would just launch himself in any direction and zip past me to pull hard whichever way I was moving because pulling was just so damned rewarding.

 

[StompinT]

I have an adolescent male with whom I have spent probably 150+ hours working on LLW with, starting from 10 weeks old. He was doing really, really well with it until about 8-9 months. It's been a battle ever since, but he is now excellent about 95% of the time.

I've stayed 100% consistent since day 1 that pulling means forward movement stops immediately. I've tried just stopping and waiting, and pivoting to go the opposite direction. My challenge has been that he is big and strong enough that he can still usually pull me at least a few inches after I've stopped. I very briefly tried a prong collar, but didn't feel it was actually very effective.

What has worked for me has been:
1. hundreds of hours working actively on it
2. a head halter - offers me MUCH more control with my crazily strong dog
3. insisting on him walking beside me on command instead of allowing him to be in front as long as the leash was loose. It just seemed much more difficult for him to stay in control with distractions if he was allowed to be out front.
4. Stopping as soon as he forges ahead at all, pivoting while saying "Whoops! You forgot!" and heading the other direction for a few steps.

When I want him by my side I tap twice on my hip with my left hand, and that's his signal that he has to remain by my side. I release him to forge ahead to sniff, lead the way, etc with a "Go sniff!" command, and he knows then that he can do as he pleases.

I've found requiring him to be by my side while on a leash for the majority of our walks has helped solidify my expectations for him. He gets breaks to "go sniff" from time to time, but mostly is required to be by me. This also means I build time into each day where he can explore off leash and sniff and mark to his hearts content. It has resulted in very, very good leash manners.

Oh, and he's 15 months old now, so I've been working on this daily for 13 months.

 

[Elrohwen]

I like to heavily reward tension on the leash, which seems counterintuitive but has actually worked very well. The moment they hit the end of the leash I run backwards while making happy party noises. "Yaaaay! You did it! Good dog!" Of course they have no choice but to follow me, and if they don't want food they'll at least get some petting. Sometimes I use a clicker and click hitting the end the leash.

The end result is a dog that thinks leash pressure means they should check in with me, which means I can ask for attention by twitching it slightly. It also seems to make them stop pulling and be mindful of how close they are. So far the only dog this didn't work on was my former roommate's weird little terrier mix who would just launch himself in any direction and zip past me to pull hard whichever way I was moving because pulling was just so damned rewarding.

I never thought of it that way, but that's basically what I've done with Hazel so far. I do say "nope!" but in a high pitched voice and then I back up or wait a sec for her to turn back towards me and then throw a party. Never thought about clicking it ... I might try that with Watson and just see what he does.

 

[Samsonyte!]

Okay well I tried backstepping and partying when he returns to me today and with some success so yay! I'll just need to keep at it and hopefully this works. Also ordered a tug leash from Rush to Tug (I've been wanting one forever and this is my excuse to get one ) because I'm totally cool with him tugging on his leash if it keeps him more engaged with me.

 

[Samsonyte!]

Double post but...tried clicking for hitting the end of the leash and stepping backwards today in a pet store and by the end of our trip not only did I have a dog that walked nicely on a leash but also Wilson was much more engaged with me and less distracted by the environment around him, which is awesome on it's own but he was also MUCH less nervous during the entire trip because of this!

 

[Southpaw]

Awesome that you're seeing improvement so quickly

 

[pinkspore]

Super! So glad it's working for you!

 

[Elrohwen]

Double post but...tried clicking for hitting the end of the leash and stepping backwards today in a pet store and by the end of our trip not only did I have a dog that walked nicely on a leash but also Wilson was much more engaged with me and less distracted by the environment around him, which is awesome on it's own but he was also MUCH less nervous during the entire trip because of this!

I tried the same thing yesterday with the same results! We were on our normal walk and Watson was being ok, but still leaning into the collar a bit. If I just stop he will look at me and release the tension, but then immediately pull again. I had a clicker on me so I tried clicking for leash tension and within a minute he was so much better. Engaged, checking in, and walking right next to me (even when I gave him the full 10ft leash). Love this technique.

 

[milos_mommy]

I didn't read the whole thread, only the first few posts.

I think LLW can be one of the hardest things to teach for a few reasons, 1. pulling can be innately rewarding and 2. It's really hard to always be consistent, especially if you rely on leash walking for exercise, potty, etc.

I would try using the premack principle if he's not motivated enough by food or treats. Give a specific command which means he's allowed to sniff around and even pull a little. Then, use the be-a-tree method or reversing directions rapidly to get him by your side. Once he focuses on you and walls nicely, even for a couple of steps, tell him "go sniff" or whatever and let him be a sniffy doofus for thirty seconds, then give a command for walking nicely, coax him to you (or just slightly tighten the leash so he can't access anything interesting) and wait it out or start turning directions.

If you're using a harness, I'd switch to a flat collar or martingale so it's not as rewarding for him to pull senselessly.

Try to limit walks as much as you can to training sessions, get him other exercise off leash before walks, and consider using the no-pull harness or whatever when you don't have time to train.