Let me clear something up...

R

rottiegirl

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#1
I have been posting information and stats about dog attacks and pit bulls. People here are pit bull lovers and do not agree with my information. There has been name calling and I beleive that I can state my opinions. I didnt mean to get people angry, my purpose was to share my research with people who wanted to learn more about the subject. I am not a pit bull hater and it is sad that these dogs are being banned. I am not throwing my information in your face, if you wish not to veiw the pit bull threads then dont. As of now I am not going to post any more threads about pit bulls. I expected people to be more opened minded then they are. I am not here to argue, my purpose is to help people with info on dog breeds and answer questions. Maybe even learn a few things myself. Sorry if I got anyone upset, that is not what I was trying to do. But I do not appreciate the name calling and rudeness.
 

bubbatd

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#3
You are intitled to your own opinion, but please don't start again.....you made your point.
 

Fran27

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#4
People here ARE opened. That's what you have no clue about. We're all aware of most of the stuff you've told us, we are perfectly aware that some breeders have been breeding them the wrong way, thank you. The difference is that we don't put all pits in the same basket like you do, because lots of them are still very good pets.

You were nothing else than a troll the way I see it. You perfectly knew you were going to **** off people, and you posted anyway. Because you are NOT helping the cause by posting this kind of thing. People only see things in black and white, they don't see the gray in the middle, and you're one of them too.
 

Athe

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#5
I never even read your other posts ;)
But, I do tend to get nervous when people start defending different breeds by saying all dogs are created equal. This scares me as this is dangerous thinking, people should be researching what a dog was created for....and study the dogs enhanced drives and predatory drive...this is what makes one dog more dangerous than the other...enhanced drives.
 

Athe

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#6
I did just read some of the posts in your other thread...you did get attacked :rolleyes:
I really think (My own personal opinion and the same for some breeders I have talked to). Human aggression is not some thing you can breed "out" of a line of dogs. Dogs orginally evolved to live within human society by choice to live as scavengers. In some countries the feral dogs which have lived since dogs evolved as feral dogs are not in the least human aggressive and have learned how to act properly around people to get food. If not then they would all have been shot. Genetically speaking all dogs started out as being non human aggressive, depending on humans for food. Then humans started playing with the motor patterns and enhanced drives...this is where the danger comes into play. Now you have breeds of dogs which have had some if not all motor patterns deleted, of course (obviously) this is going to make these dogs safer around humans as they do not have the full series of motor patterns. When you get breeds that man has kept all the motor patterns and enhanced some such as breeds as cattle droving breeds and Terriers (APBT is included in the latter)...then they enhanced some of these motor patterns...these dogs can be dangerous and when they do attack the outcome is going to be horrendous, not just a simple bite. In a dog fight you are not just going in and breaking up a professional fight with your bare hands you are going to use breaking sticks etc. (which many APBT's owners I know have breaking sticks, just in case of redirected aggression...so, there goes that therory of being able to breed dogs with enhanced motor patterns to be more tolerant of humans)...this is just like saying I bred a line of dogs that are tolerant of all cats...the only thing that is going to make dogs safe with high predatory drives is proper socialization, handling when young (people who fight dogs start training them young...so,handling these dogs is an early "learned" behavior not inherent), pups can learn behaviors from the mother as well. People use this excuse of the APBT being bred to be non human aggressive...if you think of it this way, Poodles, Retrievers all coated dogs must also be bred for non human aggression as they have to tolerate grooming all the time. I have seen more tolerant Newf's and Retrievers than I have ever seen tolerant Terriers. We had a young kennel hand attacked horribly by an APBT in for boarding (well bred btw), and another owner who was attacked horribly by her APBT and barely escaped to the bathroom...the dog had to be shot as it never stopped its attack.
I think its a great way to clear the air by discussing these topics..people who get defensive will never learn as they don't want to learn.
I typed this very quickly...so, if any part is hard to understand I apologize.
 

Athe

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#7
I meant to add as well, that there are some breeders of Rottweilers who are trying to water down the high predatory drive. Pet owners tend to forget that most breeds were bred for working, not sitting around the house as pets. In order to make breeds more stable and safe some breeders are trying to delete some motor patterns. The only problem with this, is behavior conformation and physical conformation go hand in hand...when you try to keep the "look" and get rid of the motor patterns then the breed begins to genetically fall apart. Doberman's are a prime example of how the breed has been bred differently in the past few years. When Dobes were first being shown they had to wear a muzzle, it was not a fault for the dogs to be aggressive. Now, years later the breed has been watered down quite a bit and they are a much more passive dog with half the traits they were orginally bred for.
 
Y

yuckaduck

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#8
I read one post and that was more than enough for me. I do know a few people that you would probably get along famously with. I hope that you are here to share and learn with us not to continually cause controversy. I think Renee really put it best in your other post too.
 

Melissa_W

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#9
I think you should have the right to express your opinion (But I guess you don't, since the thread got locked). I really wish that people could calmly debate the matter without getting so nasty (Some people could, but others couldn't handle it). Unfortunately, some people on the board have trouble respecting other people's opinions. :(

For the record, before anyone gets any ideas, I don't think PBs are evil and I'm against BSL. It just pisses me off when people aren't allowed to express their opinion.
 

Athe

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#10
It just pisses me off when people aren't allowed to express their opinion.
Exactly Melissa_W, I did not read all the posts by rottiegirl so I didn't know she was getting nasty. What I find happens more often is that when people express concern over some breeds...the people who own the breeds become defensive, angrey and use some flimsy excuses to deal with the situation....for example of excuses; I own one and he is sweet, they were specifically bred to be non human aggressive. This single statement got a local lady into a bad situation...she purchased an APBT for her "first" dog...well bred, good lines etc. The dog attacked her due to redirected aggression...she mentioned she purchased this particular breed and did research because they were considered more tolerant and only dog aggressive...this is not something that people should be using to defend a breed. Any dog can become human aggressive, any dog in certain situations can and will bite weather it be from fear or offensive behaviors...the only breed I have run across that has the highest tolerance levels for human stupidity for first time dog owners are most Retrievers, and Newfoundland dogs, and even they can bite, they are after all dogs, not gods....I would feel safer for some people to get some breeds over others for first time only due to the deleted motor patterns they have been selected for, which makes them much safer around children.
Most behaviors are learned, some are genetic...any dog can learn to become aggressive either from lack of socialization, spoiling, harsh training methods etc. that goes for any breed.
What people have to do is listen and learn...I own a Rottweiler and I have had the opportunity to witness first hand just how dangerous a high prey drive is. A breed with a high prey drive can be dangerous, no if and or buts about it...a dog with a high prey drive can be the sweetest dog you have ever known...its when they go into predatory drift when they can be dangerous.
I don't agree with banning breeds either...but, I am the first person to stand up and explain why, how and when a dog could go into predatory drift. If more people understood it there wouldn't be as many accidents...the people who are the victoms are not normally bad people as in burglers or robbers etc. they are normally children who are the victoms of dog attacks that end up in mauling deaths. Children are going to be the object of predatory drift more often than an adult...in most cases. This is what concerns people the most who want to ban breeds. It's up to us as dog owners of these breeds to educate people and let them realize that we know what we are doing. ;)
 

Melissa_W

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#12
Athe said:
Exactly Melissa_W, I did not read all the posts by rottiegirl so I didn't know she was getting nasty. What I find happens more often is that when people express concern over some breeds...the people who own the breeds become defensive, angrey and use some flimsy excuses to deal with the situation....for example of excuses; I own one and he is sweet, they were specifically bred to be non human aggressive. This single statement got a local lady into a bad situation...she purchased an APBT for her "first" dog...well bred, good lines etc. The dog attacked her due to redirected aggression...she mentioned she purchased this particular breed and did research because they were considered more tolerant and only dog aggressive...this is not something that people should be using to defend a breed. Any dog can become human aggressive, any dog in certain situations can and will bite weather it be from fear or offensive behaviors...the only breed I have run across that has the highest tolerance levels for human stupidity for first time dog owners are most Retrievers, and Newfoundland dogs, and even they can bite, they are after all dogs, not gods....I would feel safer for some people to get some breeds over others for first time only due to the deleted motor patterns they have been selected for, which makes them much safer around children.
Most behaviors are learned, some are genetic...any dog can learn to become aggressive either from lack of socialization, spoiling, harsh training methods etc. that goes for any breed.
What people have to do is listen and learn...I own a Rottweiler and I have had the opportunity to witness first hand just how dangerous a high prey drive is. A breed with a high prey drive can be dangerous, no if and or buts about it...a dog with a high prey drive can be the sweetest dog you have ever known...its when they go into predatory drift when they can be dangerous.
I don't agree with banning breeds either...but, I am the first person to stand up and explain why, how and when a dog could go into predatory drift. If more people understood it there wouldn't be as many accidents...the people who are the victoms are not normally bad people as in burglers or robbers etc. they are normally children who are the victoms of dog attacks that end up in mauling deaths. Children are going to be the object of predatory drift more often than an adult...in most cases. This is what concerns people the most who want to ban breeds. It's up to us as dog owners of these breeds to educate people and let them realize that we know what we are doing. ;)

Can't disagree with you there! :)
 
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#13
But I do not appreciate the name calling and rudeness.

Saying anything more negative than "pit bulls give kisses!" around most dog forums results in an absolute flood of rage. It's a strange situation - in the dog world, the pit bull's Most Maligned Victim title confers both noble martyr status and immunity from criticism on it's owner. I find it increasingly difficult to believe that people who behave as badly as the majority of pit fans do when presented with an argument (I'm sorry, but a disagreement is not grounds for hysteria, pouting, tantrums, calls for banning a poster, shutting down a thread, etc.) could possibly recognize a good dog, let alone own one.
 
Y

yuckaduck

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#14
Melissa_W said:
I think you should have the right to express your opinion (But I guess you don't, since the thread got locked). I really wish that people could calmly debate the matter without getting so nasty (Some people could, but others couldn't handle it). Unfortunately, some people on the board have trouble respecting other people's opinions. :(

For the record, before anyone gets any ideas, I don't think PBs are evil and I'm against BSL. It just pisses me off when people aren't allowed to express their opinion.

I think the problem was the name calling and insulting. Opinions good, insults bad. If it could be kept to a friendly debate then it would be fine. Also a suggestion perhaps to Chaz would be to have a debate forum and that way it could be a place to keep the arguing. I know other forums have that!
 

Melissa_W

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#15
yuckaduck said:
I think the problem was the name calling and insulting. Opinions good, insults bad. If it could be kept to a friendly debate then it would be fine. Also a suggestion perhaps to Chaz would be to have a debate forum and that way it could be a place to keep the arguing. I know other forums have that!
I totally agree, that's exactly what I'm saying. Some people can't seem to keep the debates friendly.

haha... yeah, maybe a firey debate board would be a good idea. It could be the home of the really controversial topics. With a warning on it... only go there if you dare!
 

January

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#16
Most other forums do have a debate section and I can say from experience they can get very heated. Food, breeding, pit bulls all big debate items. I see training techniques could be added in too! :D
 

Zoom

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#17
Let me clear something up as well. I'm all for freedom of speech. As a rule, I try to keep my posts civil and to the point, but I do have a breaking point and that generally comes when someone calls me ridiculous because I won't about-face on my opinion. So, I do apologize for coming off aggressive but I really am sick and tired of so many posts being about the evils of APBT's. I dont' own one and probably never will because terrier temperments are not for me. I know full well how unpredictable some of these dogs are and how they really are not good dogs for the first time/apathetic dog owners. I also have the same concerns for other terriers, Rotties, Dobes, GSD's, Mastiffs, Border Collies and a growing number of Golden Retrievers (believe it or not). Athe said many of the things I was attempting to, but I guess I wasn't getting my message across as clearly as I'd hoped to after an 11 hour shift earlier that day.
 
Y

yuckaduck

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#18
Opinions good, attacks not good. Zoom I have never read anything attacking by you. Anyway I agree had I known then what I know now I think rather than getting a puppy gsd we would have gone for an older trained one again. It is a lot of unexpected learning and I thought I knew alot but I knew nothing compared to what I should have known. I can say thanks to the people on this forum and January, Manchesters, Old Dog, Renee and GermanSheperdGurl, I have been able to learn and teach Yukon. Lots of learning happening from me too though. I wonder really if a gsd pup is appropriate for people with young children, I have seen several people saying that I should never have been allowed to purchase the dog. Simply because of temperment. I too have nothing against any breed but I will never totally trust a pitti. That being said, yes I tried to adopt a gsd/pittie, very recently but decided against due to complications surrounding the ban. I think I would have had a hard time allowing that type of dog near my kids unless it was leashed and at all times and attached to me.
 

Melissa_W

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#19
Zoom said:
Let me clear something up as well. I'm all for freedom of speech. As a rule, I try to keep my posts civil and to the point, but I do have a breaking point and that generally comes when someone calls me ridiculous because I won't about-face on my opinion. So, I do apologize for coming off aggressive but I really am sick and tired of so many posts being about the evils of APBT's. I dont' own one and probably never will because terrier temperments are not for me. I know full well how unpredictable some of these dogs are and how they really are not good dogs for the first time/apathetic dog owners. I also have the same concerns for other terriers, Rotties, Dobes, GSD's, Mastiffs, Border Collies and a growing number of Golden Retrievers (believe it or not). Athe said many of the things I was attempting to, but I guess I wasn't getting my message across as clearly as I'd hoped to after an 11 hour shift earlier that day.
Zoom, I think you've always been respectful. :)
 
R

rottiegirl

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#20
Fran, not at all what I said...

You claim that I put all pit bulls in the same basket. If you ever read my posts you will see that I have said pit bulls are not all bad and alot of them are great pets. Is that a form lf black and white thinking like you said?
 

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