Leerburg's "Pack Structure" video

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by cJw314, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. cJw314

    cJw314 Vicarious Owner

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    YouTube - Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Dog (*skip to 3 mins to get past his build-up)

    Does this offend you as much as it did me? I couldn't even finish watching the video - and that's saying a lot from me. It's fear mongering and and some might say abuse, in the name of "pack structure demonstration".

    :mad:
     
  2. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    fear mongering and abuse? I guess you haven't been around too many litters of pups before huh?
     
  3. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    Seen this video a lot, because it's OLD (old enough to be on VHS at the library so probably atl east 10 years). You should probably know that Leerburg has changed a lot of their training methods to go to mostly clicker training and PR instead of old school training.

    But I don't see where you find it so offensive? Those pups aren't afraid of him, they just don't see him as a threat to that chunk of steak he tossed in.
     
  4. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    That was a good ten minutes of "let's teach our dogs to guard food from each other!" I wouldn't want one of those pups, that first pup just spent a good long time learning that going after dogs that approach his stuff works really well, and then the item did get stolen, so she needs to do even more next time.

    It's just another person pretending they know why dogs do things. No the pup isn't growling because he likes food and wants to keep it, nope, DOMINANCE. I bet nearly all of them would have guarded the food if they liked it enough, the only reason one pup wins is because he's more persistent, wants it more than the other pups, is more confident in himself (and his ability to win) than other pups, or has learned already that making a fuss gets him what he wants (I'm sure there are other factors those are just the ones I can think of right now). The others lose because they are more interested in avoiding getting attacked then in getting the food.


    It wasn't "sorting out pack structure" it was a dog guarding food. If someone said they had a dominant dog I would have no idea what to tell them, that means nothing, if someone said "my dog is guarding food from other dogs" then I have something to work with, they told me behaviors. dominance is a very useless word, at least with dogs.
     
  5. cJw314

    cJw314 Vicarious Owner

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    It wasn't the actual pups fighting over the meat, but more-so the way that it was presented, I think. The "We haven't fed these pups" and "What would you do if this was your child" type of comments. It felt like a big, staged attack on any anti-dominance/pack structure mindset, to me.

    Glad to hear it's an old video - and that Leerburg has changed some of their methods. I remember watching a few of the training dvds a couple of years ago and wondering about "dominating" all the GSDs they're so known for.

    I just wanted him to feed the puppies. : (
     
  6. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    First off, Leerburg isn't breeding GSD's anymore and haven't for awhile.

    Those puppies are obviously well fed, why not hop on leerburgs site and go tell him that he doesn't feed his puppies? You ever think that maybe he meant it was about time for the pups to eat and knowing they're getting hungry it was a good time to use them as a demonstration. Not a single one of those pups is anywhere near thin, they obviously eat. I'm sure Ed would be thrilled to know your opinion though, just I'd duck when you get the reply.

    Jeez, puppies will fight over a chunk of meat whether they've just eaten or not. How could it be staged? It clearly showed which pup was dominant and how the other pups that aren't are more aggressive to keep the piece of meat because they have to worry about littermates yanking it from them.

    Those leerburg videos are made for people that may not be so dog saavy and think that puppies and children mix like soap and water...
     
  7. cJw314

    cJw314 Vicarious Owner

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    ACampbell0304: :blink: Seriously? I was only answering your question - that it felt like fear mongering to me. Sorry if I offended you or your apparent hero Ed with my opinion. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:
     
  8. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    Nope Ed Frawley isn't my hero by any stretch. However, saying "feed the puppies" makes it sound like those poor things are starving...which isn't the case by any stretch.

    I just find it rather sad, considering Leerburg has his own site and forum on that site, but you'd rather put their kennel down somewhere else instead of asking them directly the purpose of that video? No it's more fun to try to drag someone you obviously know nothing about through the mud.

    Seriously? :confused:
     
  9. cJw314

    cJw314 Vicarious Owner

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    1. I saw the vid on youtube; this forum was open in another tab in my browser. 'nuff said.

    2. I'm not dragging anyone's name through the mud; I started a discussion about my concerns over the video which I though of as poor treatment of pups. It felt like an attack against those of us who are anti-dominance/pack leader mentality, so I wanted clarification before I went to the source.

    You were right, obviously the pups are not underfed, as anyone else who sees the video can tell for themselves.

    I bow to your superior post count; now back away from the chunk of meat! :D :p
     
  10. Criosphynx

    Criosphynx New Member

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    I like ed, som' of the older stuff on his site bothers me, BUT that video is not one of those things...if we are talking about the puppy/resource guarding vid (vids don't work here) if I remember correctly he makes good points about bite inhibition and kids getting bit...I think it also illustrates that a puppy can be very aggressive to other dogs, but yet, not go after the handler in the same context (she takes the bone away IIRC)

    Alot of the dominance stuff DOES apply in that context...since dominance IS about resources. I don't buy into the whole dominance/alpha thing for training...but it IS correct to say the dog with the bone is dominant (at that moment). (its one of the few contexts where you can use the term):) I don't remember the specifics of what ed says in his naration.


    this is a good point....the dog with the bone is technically dominant in that CONTEXT, but it does not mean its a "dominant dog" or "alpha" if that makes sense. I also hate it when people say "help my dog is dominant" it doesn't mean anything.
     
  11. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I thought it was a decent video. I use dominance when talking about training, mostly cause I don't get too upset by the term. To me, anybody or anything that is controlling the situation, is by my definition, "dominant". So I use it, and don't care if others get undies in a bunch when I do.

    I like to use the term "pack" because they're dogs, and that's what we call groups of dogs, sometimes I call us a family too, mostly because I love them.

    I don't make dogs sit at the door so I can go thru first to establish "pack order", I make them sit sometimes at doors because it's easier and safer and I am "the pack leader" :)

    but "dominance" between dogs, absolutely 100%, exists between dogs in certain situations.

    I think this video illustrated a few things. One is that people need to see that puppies aren't always just cute and cuddly and your toddler can get hurt if you aren't careful. I also think it does show how they interact. Some used big displays to "keep" what they had. the other didn't do anything, and nobody came to take either. why?
     
  12. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    I agree with this, but I don't in the same breath.

    Look the the "dominant" puppy. Notice she isn't growling or having to fight to keep that chunk of meat, she's calm and knows nobody is going to try to take it from her.

    Why is that? The other puppies were being mobbed for the meat, none of them were trying to take it away from the last one.
     
  13. cJw314

    cJw314 Vicarious Owner

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    It's my understanding - and I'm fairly green at actually understanding behavioral theory - that the middle ranking members of the "pack" would need to be so vocal/aggressive to maintain their possession of the bone. The established "leader" is recognized as such as doesn't need to remind everyone of it. Is that correct?

    That being said, any dog in my house - pup or not - is going to recognize that me and the humans that live there are its source of food and affection, and therefore would simply defer to us.

    Is this a naive assumption? Probably. Am I going to work to assure there isn't any food guarding/agression? Absolutely.
     
  14. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I don't think there was anything naive in what you said, that's pretty much how it should be. But not every dog or puppy defers to everyone all the time, especially toddlers or infants.
     
  15. Tsume'sMom

    Tsume'sMom New Member

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    Not really about the video BUT : I often wonder if Ed's videos should be available to the public at large. Now that he is softer maybe, but his older stuff was baised in hard working line dogs. Most pet dogs will never have the kind of drive and tanacity a true working line dog will have. If you have EVER worked with a properly bred and raised working dog, then you come to understand where sometimes a correction may be needed. But these kinds of dogs do not belong in pet homes. So I often question WHY training and videos of working dogs are reccomended for the pet dog.

    Most pet dogs are happy to work for rewards, and PR is the least harmful training method for the masses of uneducated dog owners. So why Ed at all?

    JMO
     
  16. Maura

    Maura New Member

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    I was not offended by the video. I can see where someone who has not been around puppies, or even adult dogs in the same household would misunderstand normal canine behavior. He pointed out that all three of the puppies, once they had the bone, wanted to keep it. Yes, your child could be bitten by your puppy, and it doesn't mean the puppy thinks he is the alpha, or that your puppy is dominant aggressive. He overstates the "human must be alpha", but he is correct that most puppies will let the adult take something from them and I hope that anyone would take from the clip that they should keep their toddler away from a puppy who has a treasure.
     

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