Learning "SPEAK" command, being difficult

[scoutscout123]

Well hello everyone, I've been trying to train my dog to speak for about a year now with no results!

I've read a bunch of guides that say try to make him frustrated, keeping treats away from him, making him jealous, and going out and giving him the command then reward if i hear him barking.

My problem is my dog is a big ol sissy and doesn't bark at ANY of my friends that come over, and he doesn't get frustrated to the point where he will bark for a treat or toy!

He does bark at the neighbors and anytime I hear him do it I run out there with one of his favorite treats, a piece of hotdog, and say say "SPeak", he comes to me and stops barking, I give him the treat and say "Good Speak" and keep praising him but still after a year he's not speaking on command.

I've taught him other commands, just the basics.
Any suggestions?

 

[makenzie71]

Frustrate? No...never frustrate the dog. That's not what you want.

The best way I've found to teach them to speak is by example...and with small tastey treats. Something better than the regular dog-bisquit type stuff...jerky or even quality raw meats.

Now, the BIGGEST benefit you'll have is a happy dog. Have him do a couple other tricks and let him get a shot at these tasties you've brought him for this special training session.

After he's worked through his normal routine, say very clearly "speak" (or your preferred command) then "bark" at him...and repeat (speak bark bark speak bark bark bark etc). When I was training Makenzie to speak I would kinda run in place and hold his treat out like I was playing with him. Try coaxing him for a moment but if you get no results, go back to tricks he already knows. If you can get him to make ANY sound at all, reward him...be it a slight whine or anything...then go to another trick. When you come back to "speak" he'll probably be willing to make more noise, so try and get a little more out of him.

I'll warn you, though..."speak" has it's side effects. Since makenzie learned that "speak" gets him treats, he talks a lot. I'm not sure if I'm going to intentionally teach Buddy to speak because of this...but he'll probably learn from Makenzie.

Also, only stick with this for 20 to 30 minutes. If he doesn't have it by that time, he'll need a break. Reward him for his effort (make him do an easy trick) and try again later.

 

[Rubylove]

Yup I'm with Mackenzie - don't frustrate your dog, that is NOT the aim of training!! Sometimes they do learn by imitation - that's how Chester learned `where's the ball?' But like he says - it's a two-edged sword, that one. A clever dog will start chatting away all the time once he knows he'll get a treat for it, and then you have to start other types of training to teach him that he'll only get a treat when you ask for a speak...etc

 

[Mordy]

I'll warn you, though..."speak" has it's side effects. Since makenzie learned that "speak" gets him treats, he talks a lot. I'm not sure if I'm going to intentionally teach Buddy to speak because of this

Actually it's smart to train barking as a behavior on cue - because once it is on cue, you have direct control over it. It's the best way to deal with a nuisance-barking dog for example.

Just be consistent.

 

[makenzie71]

Thing is, though, that even if they're taught to bark on cue, they'll still get it in their head to bark just for treats...I mean, obviously results will vary, but this is what I've experienced.

 

[filarotten]

I agree don't frustrate the dog.
I always barked at mine and said speak, over and over...and did a little excitement dance... then gave them a treat when they did.

 

[scoutscout123]

thanks for the tips everyone!
i'll definately be trying it. hope my neighbors don't think i belong in the looney farm when i'm barking at my dog! hahaha

 

[makenzie71]

...and did a little excitement dance...

hahaha the "excitement" dance...lol...I was going to say that but figured no one would know what the hell I as takling about.

 

[bubbatd]

I do !!! Done that many times... now teaching " no bark " is a different story !

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Well, as is usual, I have a different outlook on this.

I've trained numerous dogs to bark, but there are some that just don't naturally have a strong "bark" concept. Sometimes you can work through it, sometimes not. I"ve never actually found that barking at my dogs does much good, and I kind of doubt it will work with a dog that isn't naturally very "barky" anyway. If I can free-shape the bark (the dog barks and I immediately reinforce and eventually put it on cue) then that's the easiest way, but again it needs to be a dog that offers the bark frequently on their own.

But frustration has a very valuable place in dog training. When you're working with a dog, especially in shaping a behavior using positive reinforcement, allowing the dog to gain a level of frustration usually leads to the dog offering new behaviors or escalating the behavior they already have. When it comes to barking, getting the dog excited and maybe a bit frustrated can often result in a bark - which then gives you something to reinforce. It's the way I taught my youngest to bark and it was very effective.

If I'm working a behavior (let's say I want to teach them to put their feet up onto a step) I will at first reinforce them for coming to the step, or looking at the step. And once they have it down that they should focus on that step, I stop reinforcing for looking or coming to it. When I don't reinforce that, they get frustrated and push their behavior into something new - and usually it means touching the step, which now gives me something new to reinforce. I reinforce that until they are touching the step consistently, and then I stop reinforcing that and when they touch the step and don't get anything, they eventually get a bit frustrated and start offering new behaviors, usually ending up by standing on the step - and voila! I reinforce that.

Anytime you have a dog come up to you and start to go through a bunch of behaviors trying to figure out what gets the treat, you have a dog at a certain level of frustration. Sometimes they get quite frantic and even start barking at you because they don't know what to do. This frustration is not a bad thing at all.

I have two dogs here who are just very quiet dogs and they don't bark on command. The other three are very consistent. I haven't found that they bark more because it's on cue - they bark more than the other dogs because barking just plain comes natural to them .. *L*.

Scoutscout, your dog just may be one of those quiet dogs that won't learn a bark on command. Unless you can find a way to get him to offer a bark when you can reinforce immediately, you probably won't. You may find that there's a particular sound that will cause a reaction in him (maybe a whistle or siren or something) but until you find what makes him bark, it's impossible to reinforce it.

Good luck, and have fun with him! There are tons of tricks to teach, so maybe you can try some others and along the way you'll find something that sets off the bark for him.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Mordy]

Thing is, though, that even if they're taught to bark on cue, they'll still get it in their head to bark just for treats...I mean, obviously results will vary, but this is what I've experienced.

And the behavior will only "stick" if you reward it. If you instead wait until the dog is quiet before he gets his treat, they "get it" fairly quickly.

 

[Mordy]

Melanie made a great point by saying "level of frustration". This does not mean that the dog is frustrated to no end and about to shut down, just ticked enough to get to a point where they catch on that something isn't working and it's time to get creative and try something different.

I can only highly recommend to anyone interested in this way of training to read a few good books on the topic. Many things need a bit of clarification.

 

[makenzie71]

oh yeah I get that...that's the standard routine. But they'll still get it in their head to "jump the gun" so to speak if they really want that treat. I've had Makenzie actually go through his whole routine just because he saw the treat in my hand, without command (sit...lay...roll over...stay...speak...etc...)...it's simple impatience in the dog.

I've also taught through "frustration" as described and I have had success...I'll even go so far as to say I've found it more rewarding when I succeed that way (because I usually frustrate myself as well as the dog and "success" just feels better in the mindset). But I think that teaching with a very posative and simplistic approach (bark and to the "excited" dance lol) have sped up the process.

But, as has been said MANY times on the subject of training, all dogs are different and will learn things different ways. I've had dogs train easier through frustration and creativity, and I've had some learn faster through myself being a total idiot (barking and dancing around). No real wrong way to approach it, just less effective ones!

Best of luck!

 

[scoutscout123]

More great input, thanks everyone!

It's going to be hard to find a bark catalyst, he's just quiet. He's a PittBull and 2 years old now and I haven't even seen him bark or growl at other dogs.

I have caught him barking at a neighbor or repair man, but as soon as he sees me, he stops and comes running to me. I try to run out there anytime I hear him barking and reinforce his barking, but like I said, he just stops and comes to me when he sees me.

He does know the basics, Out, Sit, Down, Home, Shake, Wave and even Stay, and I have also taught him even if I have a treat in my hand not to try to get it if my hands are down by my side, only to get a treat if my hand is fully extended out towards him - one thing I hate is someones dog that jumps all over people and tries to see what's in their hand and just jumps all over the place.

Again, thanks everyone for the advice, you guys rock!

 

[Molly_Moppet]

I taught my dog to speak by frustrating her. I played with her with a toy for a while, then held it above her head. When she barked for it i said, 'speak, good girl' and gave her the toy. It took her about twenty minutes. Now she does it on command and by hand signal.

 

[rottiegirl]

But frustration has a very valuable place in dog training. When you're working with a dog, especially in shaping a behavior using positive reinforcement, allowing the dog to gain a level of frustration usually leads to the dog offering new behaviors or escalating the behavior they already have. When it comes to barking, getting the dog excited and maybe a bit frustrated can often result in a bark - which then gives you something to reinforce. It's the way I taught my youngest to bark and it was very effective.

This is exactly how I tought my rottie mix to speak, and it was a breeze!!

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I'm glad people understood what I was talking about with the "level of frustration" I described. It's not a matter of getting your dog so frustrated that he wants to chew your leg off .. *L* .. but it sure makes them try harder when they are wanting to figure out how to get the darn treat (or ball or toy or whatever you use as a reward).

The goal is to find a way to get the dog to offer the behavior so you have something to reinforce. I don't want to cause the dog physical pain or mental anguish .. I just want them to try new things. And actually, once you've started training this way, your dog starts to figure out that offering behaviors is a good thing and will spontaneously offer them. A bit of frustration and they're throwing all sorts of behaviors at you.

The hard part is only reinforcing what you want them to do .. I find myself laughing at things that Khana does and that can be a reinforcement at the wrong time! I taught her to shake her head "no" and sometimes I'll ask her to do something and she'll shake her head instead. I know she doesn't connect the meaning of that trick, but it's just so funny when she pulls that out that I can't help but laugh. My inconsistency makes it a bit harder to get the behaviors firmly on cue, but darn it .. dogs can be so funny at times!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[scoutscout123]

I taught my dog to speak by frustrating her. I played with her with a toy for a while, then held it above her head. When she barked for it i said, 'speak, good girl' and gave her the toy. It took her about twenty minutes. Now she does it on command and by hand signal.

I wish it were that easy for me! I've tried it with his toys, hot dogs and steak, but after 10 minutes of jumping up trying to get it, going frantically in circles and looking at me oddly, he just walks away and lays down.

I tried barking at him today with no luck so far, did 2 10 minute sessions.

 

[mrose_s]

the one thing i have learned is the hardest to remeber and should be the easuest to do is to make a plan. what is the command going to be? will there be a "stop" command? will the dog end the command in a sit or drop etc position?

make sure there is a plan it must drive buster crazy when i use "let it go" one time and "drop it" the next. so make sure you know your aim first

 

[stevinski]

there was a dog on 'me or the dog' that barked alot so the lady taught it bark but shhhh as well, she taught it to only bark when she tells her.