What's your opinions about leadership? What do you think makes a dog do the command when it get the command? Beacause it want to please you, or because it want to get something good/avoid something bad? Do you think a dog tries to climb on the rank when it f.ex. steals food from you or does other things people often means is to attempt to climb the rank?
Leadership
- Thread starter wesminster
- Start date
f.ex?
I think it all depends on the training method you use. If you're all about correction-based training, then yes, the dog is going to work to avoid "something bad" happening. Some dogs work just fine on praise, some dogs need a custom method that works for them.
Some dominant dogs will try to climb the social ladder, which is why it is so important for every dog owner to establish their position as "Top Dog". This does not mean beating it, alpha-rolls or outdated nonsense like that. Just make the dog work for everything it gets--NILIF.
I think it all depends on the training method you use. If you're all about correction-based training, then yes, the dog is going to work to avoid "something bad" happening. Some dogs work just fine on praise, some dogs need a custom method that works for them.
Some dominant dogs will try to climb the social ladder, which is why it is so important for every dog owner to establish their position as "Top Dog". This does not mean beating it, alpha-rolls or outdated nonsense like that. Just make the dog work for everything it gets--NILIF.
My dogs do what I say because they find it in their best interest to do so. When they blow off a command, they instantly regret it. Not because they are going to be corrected, but because in ignoring my command they have lost an opportunity for something really cool. They have also gotten themselves "shunned" by me. I silently take them and isolate them for several minutes if they deliberately ignore a command in favor of doing something more fun. They learn that their little moment of disobedience, fun as it was, is not worth pissing me off. LOL.
I don't believe that things such as food stealing are an attempt at dominance. Food stealing is the result of poor training or no training. Dogs like food, so they will take it if it's left out. Dogs need to be taught boundaries when it comes to things like this, they don't instinctively know that food on a plate does not belong to them.
I don't believe that things such as food stealing are an attempt at dominance. Food stealing is the result of poor training or no training. Dogs like food, so they will take it if it's left out. Dogs need to be taught boundaries when it comes to things like this, they don't instinctively know that food on a plate does not belong to them.
I think it's all about your relationship with your canine companions. A dog must trust their person explicitly, trust that they will be provided for, that all the things they need to survive and more come from their owner. They need to have boundaries and rules which are shown to them in a way in which THEY can understand. Following the rules behoves the dog. Joining in a partnership relationship with his owner becomes very worth his while. I don't think a dog has to earn everything he needs, but he needs to know that his survival, luxuries and fun come from his owner and that he does have to pull his own weight to be a part of this partnership, that he has a place in the scheme of things. And he must be made to feel secure in this place. Security comes from a secure, confident, stable, kind, fair, good communicator of an owner who knows what they are doing and makes it known to the dog that he knows what he is doing so the dog feels taken care of unquestionably.
Mordy said:
you took the words right out of my... keyboard?? 
I think it also depends on the dog. If you adopt an older dog, he/she may already be set in there ways. I think there are dogs that a really in tune with there pack, or loyal to it, and get stressed when its distrupted. Other dogs are selfish(?) -not sure if thats the word I'm looking for- could really care less, they live with you and love you, but when it comes to obeying a command there attitude is "what's in it for me?" I've seen this attitude with dogs that have been trained with the 'lure into postition' meathod. If you don't have a treat, they don't do it. It loops around to the security, if the care of the dog is consitant, and the dogs temperment IMO
I think since I've worked with some pretty fearful dogs, leadership is very important. I really don't do much "training" per say, until the dog is feeling safe and secure in my presence, and receptive to direction.
Some shelter dogs have been through some pretty traumatic situations, which have to be worked through. It's true these older dogs can take more work due to, I guess you could say, living a life where their fear was never dealt with, or was even reinforced inadvertantly by the previous owner.
With leadership, you can relate to the dog without even asking them to specifically DO something for you. I do use some verbal boundries, to let the dog know what I want, and many people these days are also using their body to communicate leadership through posture, facial expressions, eye contact, touch and even body blocking. I have found all of this useful.
Some shelter dogs have been through some pretty traumatic situations, which have to be worked through. It's true these older dogs can take more work due to, I guess you could say, living a life where their fear was never dealt with, or was even reinforced inadvertantly by the previous owner.
With leadership, you can relate to the dog without even asking them to specifically DO something for you. I do use some verbal boundries, to let the dog know what I want, and many people these days are also using their body to communicate leadership through posture, facial expressions, eye contact, touch and even body blocking. I have found all of this useful.
Brattina,
All dogs are concerned with "what's in it for me." Some may be more obvious than others. Some know how to get along in a more indirect way. But they all are manipulative and opportunistic. That is their nature. That is how they became domesticated, basically. All dogs have some degree or another, varying amounts of pack drive, prey drive and fight/flight drive. When dogs have been neglected or abused, pack drive hasn't done them much good, so they may veer off from engaging in much of that. This may be what you're talking about or there are dogs with a lower pack drive than others. I believe (don't quote me) that some hound type dog have more in the way of prey drive and a lower pack drive. My Dobe has a very high pack drive and a fairly high prey drive. There are dogs who have not had their emotional needs met. But there are ways to regain some of that in abused dogs, for instance, by building trust, over time. When pack drive is stronger, then I think a more communicative bond will form between dog and human.
Treating and luring, IMO has nothing to do with disobediance. Training does... and a healthy relationship has to do with a dog's attentiveness to it's owner. I train, using luring for positioning rather than force. I don't any longer, need treats for everything all the time. The dogs you saw who required treats to do anything weren't trained properly. The treats at some point need to be put on a variable reward schedule. There's more to operant/classical conditioning training than simply giving treats for everything. My dog is coming along beautifully with his training.... doing some advanced obedience and agility... and he's very well mannered and the bond we have is phenomenal. If he were a human, he'd be my husband. ROFL.
Like Angelique said, some dogs have some real psychological issues from damaging relationships with people. Those need to be overcome with expert handling. But as far as dogs thinking along the lines of what's in it for me, don't kid yourself into thinking your dog does things ONLY because he loves you. He is hard wired to instinctively get along with you in order to survive with as little difficulty or hardship to himself as possible. There has to be something in it for the dog to have anything to do with us. And visa versa.
Most trainers take advantage of that inherent thing in dogs, that there has to be something in it for them. That's how they're able to be trained.
All dogs are concerned with "what's in it for me." Some may be more obvious than others. Some know how to get along in a more indirect way. But they all are manipulative and opportunistic. That is their nature. That is how they became domesticated, basically. All dogs have some degree or another, varying amounts of pack drive, prey drive and fight/flight drive. When dogs have been neglected or abused, pack drive hasn't done them much good, so they may veer off from engaging in much of that. This may be what you're talking about or there are dogs with a lower pack drive than others. I believe (don't quote me) that some hound type dog have more in the way of prey drive and a lower pack drive. My Dobe has a very high pack drive and a fairly high prey drive. There are dogs who have not had their emotional needs met. But there are ways to regain some of that in abused dogs, for instance, by building trust, over time. When pack drive is stronger, then I think a more communicative bond will form between dog and human.
Treating and luring, IMO has nothing to do with disobediance. Training does... and a healthy relationship has to do with a dog's attentiveness to it's owner. I train, using luring for positioning rather than force. I don't any longer, need treats for everything all the time. The dogs you saw who required treats to do anything weren't trained properly. The treats at some point need to be put on a variable reward schedule. There's more to operant/classical conditioning training than simply giving treats for everything. My dog is coming along beautifully with his training.... doing some advanced obedience and agility... and he's very well mannered and the bond we have is phenomenal. If he were a human, he'd be my husband. ROFL.
Like Angelique said, some dogs have some real psychological issues from damaging relationships with people. Those need to be overcome with expert handling. But as far as dogs thinking along the lines of what's in it for me, don't kid yourself into thinking your dog does things ONLY because he loves you. He is hard wired to instinctively get along with you in order to survive with as little difficulty or hardship to himself as possible. There has to be something in it for the dog to have anything to do with us. And visa versa.
Most trainers take advantage of that inherent thing in dogs, that there has to be something in it for them. That's how they're able to be trained.
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