Leadership exercise help
- Thread starter scox1313
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Those exercises look extremely out-dated and not something I could recommend doing.
It's now known that puppies don't see humans in an organized social-pack manner...IE, your puppy isn't going to disobey because she doesn't think you're the "alpha dog". She's disobeying because she doesn't know any better.
She's not biting to dominate you, she's biting because she's trying to play or she wants your attention and she has not learned that these are inappropriate ways to initiate play or get attention.
Don't psychically restrain your puppy against her will unless it's some kind of an emergency, she'll learn that being held by people is a punishment and not a choice and it will likely make her bite harder in order to get you to let go.
Unfortunately, on the internet (and on tv, and in books) there is a lot of mis-information about stopping mouthiness in puppies. The best idea would be to teach her to sit using a positive reinforcement method (not physically forcing her to sit) and then ask her to sit and reward her for sitting instead of biting when she gets nippy. If you're playing with her and she bites, you should end the game immediately and get up and ignore her (which will probably make her bite you more to get you to play, but firmly saying "NO" and then ignoring her will quickly teach her biting ends the game).
It's now known that puppies don't see humans in an organized social-pack manner...IE, your puppy isn't going to disobey because she doesn't think you're the "alpha dog". She's disobeying because she doesn't know any better.
She's not biting to dominate you, she's biting because she's trying to play or she wants your attention and she has not learned that these are inappropriate ways to initiate play or get attention.
Don't psychically restrain your puppy against her will unless it's some kind of an emergency, she'll learn that being held by people is a punishment and not a choice and it will likely make her bite harder in order to get you to let go.
Unfortunately, on the internet (and on tv, and in books) there is a lot of mis-information about stopping mouthiness in puppies. The best idea would be to teach her to sit using a positive reinforcement method (not physically forcing her to sit) and then ask her to sit and reward her for sitting instead of biting when she gets nippy. If you're playing with her and she bites, you should end the game immediately and get up and ignore her (which will probably make her bite you more to get you to play, but firmly saying "NO" and then ignoring her will quickly teach her biting ends the game).
There is no pack hierarchy, you are humans, your dog is a dog, no wolves, no pack. Just people and dogs living together. These excerices will not change how obedient your dog is or how well behaved he is in other contexts, they will simply teach him a few words (sit and down), something easily accomplished in many ways. Manipulating your dog's physical position will not change how he sees you socially or affect his overall behavior with you.
I would not train these commands with molding (or as they said "modeling") as I feel dogs learn slower this way. They don't have to think about what they are doing, you do it for them. When you ask them to think about their behavior, try and figure out what you want them to do, then they really have to think about their position and it sinks in much faster and more permanantly. Plus since there are no rewards in this particular method it will likely become confrontational. The dog doesn't want to down right now, you make him, he tries to get up, you hold him down, he struggles, you struggle=confrontation, very unpleasant for both of you. It's much easier to just teach him to want to lie down when you ask, this means rewarding him for being in the down position. You can lure, capture, or shape with a reward so that asking for a down isn't a threat of "do it or I'll make you do it against your will" but an invitation of "do it and I'll make it worth your while". Molding isn't always the worst thing ever but without a reward it's almost bound to become a struggle between you and your dog at some point.
What I DO suggest you do is teach your dog to be okay with handling in a positive manner. You said your dog nips when you try these things so it would be good to teach him being handled is good, not mean/restrictive/unpleasant, etc. Start with as much touching as you can WITHOUT biting. If that means one stroke then start there, if that means lifting a paw, start there. Use treats to reward each time you touch or hold a part of his body and he doesn't try to bite. Lift a paw, reward, repeat. Lift and restrict the paw, reward, repeat. Life paw and splay toes, reward, repeat, etc. taking it slow so he never feels the need to bite. If he bites go slower, back up to the last step he didn't bite at and work there for longer. Slowly work up to the point where you can hold him belly up and examine his toes, ears, teeth, etc without protest. This will take lots of time but it will make life for you, your vet, and any potential groomers much easier. Keep these handling sessions SHORT and try to do them when he's not over the top with energy, especially at first.
I would not train these commands with molding (or as they said "modeling") as I feel dogs learn slower this way. They don't have to think about what they are doing, you do it for them. When you ask them to think about their behavior, try and figure out what you want them to do, then they really have to think about their position and it sinks in much faster and more permanantly. Plus since there are no rewards in this particular method it will likely become confrontational. The dog doesn't want to down right now, you make him, he tries to get up, you hold him down, he struggles, you struggle=confrontation, very unpleasant for both of you. It's much easier to just teach him to want to lie down when you ask, this means rewarding him for being in the down position. You can lure, capture, or shape with a reward so that asking for a down isn't a threat of "do it or I'll make you do it against your will" but an invitation of "do it and I'll make it worth your while". Molding isn't always the worst thing ever but without a reward it's almost bound to become a struggle between you and your dog at some point.
What I DO suggest you do is teach your dog to be okay with handling in a positive manner. You said your dog nips when you try these things so it would be good to teach him being handled is good, not mean/restrictive/unpleasant, etc. Start with as much touching as you can WITHOUT biting. If that means one stroke then start there, if that means lifting a paw, start there. Use treats to reward each time you touch or hold a part of his body and he doesn't try to bite. Lift a paw, reward, repeat. Lift and restrict the paw, reward, repeat. Life paw and splay toes, reward, repeat, etc. taking it slow so he never feels the need to bite. If he bites go slower, back up to the last step he didn't bite at and work there for longer. Slowly work up to the point where you can hold him belly up and examine his toes, ears, teeth, etc without protest. This will take lots of time but it will make life for you, your vet, and any potential groomers much easier. Keep these handling sessions SHORT and try to do them when he's not over the top with energy, especially at first.
Also ... pack theory is bunk and just pop culture myth. Dogs are social animals but when left to their own devices (feral) don't form stable packs. Dogs are opportunistic social scavengers. Which means they are often found with different individuals depending on the day, and spend a lot of time scavenging alone. They don't form family units (like wolves) and any dog can mate with any other willing dog.. unlike pack canine that have strict hierarchy about such things.
So yes don't worry about that alpha nonsense. Dogs know we are not dogs, and even if they did they aren't pack animals anyway...
So yes don't worry about that alpha nonsense. Dogs know we are not dogs, and even if they did they aren't pack animals anyway...
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Lizzy's right...the dog doesn't look happy, and he's probably complying because he's terrified that if he doesn't the person handling him is going to "alpha roll" him.
Make sure you find a GOOD puppy class, with a trainer that uses positive reinforcement methods and a class size you're comfortable with. Usually trainers in classes at places like petco and petsmart aren't certified dog trainers at all and just repeat what they see on TV.
Make sure you find a GOOD puppy class, with a trainer that uses positive reinforcement methods and a class size you're comfortable with. Usually trainers in classes at places like petco and petsmart aren't certified dog trainers at all and just repeat what they see on TV.
True.
But IME, there can be a fairly predictable social hierarchy among dogs that share a home. I'm reluctant to call it a pack, but there is some degree of structure. I also tend to think such tendencies may be more prevalent in certain breeds ~ herders for one. Would those same dogs join together in the wild? Not mine. But they're not in the wild and they are adaptive and if adapting requires them to be submissive towards a housemate, that seems to be what they do.
But IME, there can be a fairly predictable social hierarchy among dogs that share a home. I'm reluctant to call it a pack, but there is some degree of structure. I also tend to think such tendencies may be more prevalent in certain breeds ~ herders for one. Would those same dogs join together in the wild? Not mine. But they're not in the wild and they are adaptive and if adapting requires them to be submissive towards a housemate, that seems to be what they do.
Think of pack order or social hierarchy as "mom and the kids". The kids do not have the status of the parent. But, the parent is in charge of taking care of the kids, keeping them safe. It's better if the kids do what mom says. Your puppy is like a child. Not an infant, but more like a preschooler. You are the older and wiser one. Puppies at this stage follow others around (safer for them and more likely to get food). Take advantage of this by teaching your puppy to follow you as a response. For instance, pat your leg, say "here boy", this trains your puppy at a following age to follow you. Puppies sit a lot. They tire easily, so they sit a lot. Now is a good time to use a food lure to get the puppy to sit, praise and treat. Now is a good time to teach her to potty outside, using a food treat when she goes in the right place. Now is a good time to work on the recall, because an excited voice will usually get a puppy to come running to you whether or not food is involved.
If you want to use a book, get a clicker training book. You are less likely to make mistakes using clicker training than correction training, and it will be more fun.
If you want to use a book, get a clicker training book. You are less likely to make mistakes using clicker training than correction training, and it will be more fun.
Oh there is structure any time animals live together. But with dogs its fluid and not terribly useful when it comes to training (even if you could convince dogs were were dogs... though I would think they would perceive us as mentally challenged dogs as were aren't very good at it...)
A dog who has status over toys, might not be the one who gets the comfy place on the couch etc. They might be, but they might not be. Kaiden is 'boss' over girls in heat.. but lowest on the totem pole when it comes to couch space, for example. Dekka lords it over all the other dogs when ever she wants something and will even glare/intimidate dogs into dropping their bones.. even grabbing it from them mid chew (she is really nasty sometimes) if she reaaally wants it.
So it comes down to it they have structure, but an extremely fluid one. Also interesting to note dogs generally don't 'follow' the one that controls the most resources. So its not at all useful for training.
A dog who has status over toys, might not be the one who gets the comfy place on the couch etc. They might be, but they might not be. Kaiden is 'boss' over girls in heat.. but lowest on the totem pole when it comes to couch space, for example. Dekka lords it over all the other dogs when ever she wants something and will even glare/intimidate dogs into dropping their bones.. even grabbing it from them mid chew (she is really nasty sometimes) if she reaaally wants it.
So it comes down to it they have structure, but an extremely fluid one. Also interesting to note dogs generally don't 'follow' the one that controls the most resources. So its not at all useful for training.
Oh, I agree it's not useful when it comes to training dogs. I just am still kicking myself for taking the whole dubunking of pack theory too far and discounting the social dynamics too much and ending up with fights that could have been prevented if I'd only believed that the dogs do have some sort of hierarchy between them.
It's fluid in the sense of no one dog controls everything and it's fluid in the sense that their day-to-day moods might change what it is they want that day, but it's not so fluid in so far as who defers to whom when there is an issue.
Controlling resources is useful in training. If my dog has free access to resources, he has no incentive to perform stupid pet tricks to receive them.
It's fluid in the sense of no one dog controls everything and it's fluid in the sense that their day-to-day moods might change what it is they want that day, but it's not so fluid in so far as who defers to whom when there is an issue.
Controlling resources is useful in training. If my dog has free access to resources, he has no incentive to perform stupid pet tricks to receive them.
They only follow you if they think you are going to share. If you don't train them that they can earn a reward.. just having them doesn't do much. I can own all the food I want, but if I don't feed the dog (or the dog sees the food coming from me) owning it doesn't do much for our relationship.
And by what I meant by fluid is that dominance doesn't confer over all resources (it can, but it doesn't necessarily follow) And personal relationships IME have as much or more to do with the likelihood of a fight than 'pack status' Bounce is pretty low in most things, but Dekka is more likely to fight her than Kaiden (who is higher) yet she never fights with Dash who is the lowest (not counting the her son)
And by what I meant by fluid is that dominance doesn't confer over all resources (it can, but it doesn't necessarily follow) And personal relationships IME have as much or more to do with the likelihood of a fight than 'pack status' Bounce is pretty low in most things, but Dekka is more likely to fight her than Kaiden (who is higher) yet she never fights with Dash who is the lowest (not counting the her son)