Kuvasz breeder opinions

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by StephyMei1112, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. StephyMei1112

    StephyMei1112 Blackout

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    The dog is an equal - but I've had alot of bfs...
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    I've been doing ALOT of thinking about the next dog - two years/one and a half isn't that far away at all. And originally I did after all want to get a pair of Kuvasz both at once (littermates and both girls too), I was successfully dissuaded of the idea and ended up with just Katalin.

    This breed is mine and has really captured my heart - so again, this is all nothing but speculation at the moment. But I'm looking into Kuvasz breeders in the States for the second addition - IF I do choose to go that route. Katalin's breeder's won't be having puppies for a good while, the humans are having some health issues and getting up there in years. She has within her mostly every Canadian champion line of her breed - so I was discussing this with her breeder the other day and she was very nice about it and recommended a few kennels to me.

    Wanted to get opinions on here about them first though =)

    There's the illustriuous Szumeria Kuvasz Kennels - they're this year's AKC working group breeder of the year and home of Tanner, apparently the number one Kuvasz in the history of the breed :yikes: They prefer their pups to go to other show/contract homes and are abit difficult to acquire from - but my breeder has a relationship with one of the ladies involved with Szumeria and can put in a word for me.


    http://www.szumeriakuvasz.com/


    Glacier Creek Kuvasz looks promising too... They have a AKC Breeder of Merit achievement and some very lovely looking dogs. Not much details about health records on the website that I can see - but I'm sure they are pretty good and can confirm and discuss with breeder.

    http://glaciercreekkuvasz.com/

    Elso Kuvasz - don't know much about them. They just had puppies...*drool*....but who could really resist? AKC breeder of Merit as well - they look good.

    http://www.elsokuvasz.com/

    This one would be the closest distance wise for me - Casablanca Kuvasz in California. -

    http://www.casablancakuvasz.com/

    Then there is Double Ring Kuvasz -

    http://doubleringkuvasz.com/index.html

    Honestly I'm leaning towards Szumeria and Glacier Creek...
     
  2. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I haven't met any of those breeders since Kuvasz breeders aren't very common here, but Szep Tars has some really nice correct dogs. They've been really great as companions and some of her show dogs have retired to working stock on big sheep farms.

    Szumeria is behind their lines too. :)

    I really like their girl Piper. She placed top 10 in the breed with VERY limited showing. She has a closer, dense curly coat which is really interesting. And she's totally stable and rad. <3 I'd probably get one from them if I ever get into the breed.

    http://www.szeptars.com/

    ETA: They're very open about health testing and health history in their lines, good and bad. Something I really value in a breeder.
     
  3. StephyMei1112

    StephyMei1112 Blackout

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    Thanks Romy!

    They look really lovely too. Ah decisions, decisions...
     
  4. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Personally I'd put in inquiries with the ones you like and see if they're planning any litters, then go from there. :)
     
  5. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    How much experience have you had with this breed or other livestock protection breeds? Do you live on a farm or large property, which enables these breeds some room?
    Not trying to rain on your parade, but I see more and more ppl obtaining these types of dogs, living in apartments, houses in towns/cities and frankly running into a lot of trouble.
     
  6. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    She has one currently...
     
  7. StephyMei1112

    StephyMei1112 Blackout

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    The dog is an equal - but I've had alot of bfs...
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    This is my first LGD and indeed I currently own a 9 month old Kuvasz puppy.

    Ya, the majority of folks out there don't understand what exactly they are getting into (see my Maremma mistaken as goldens thread in the other forum) and don't have a good comprehension of the breed before they jump into the commitment. Frankly - that pisses me off alot; ANY dog requires heavy socialization, firm yet fair training and a certain structure depending on their individual in order to be good canine citizens - you don't acquire one of these behemoths and allow them to behave like bloody fools. Katalin is more than socialized and is thriving; Her training is going excellently at weekly classes and we may get into agility once she's abit older (I want to be careful of her bones as she's still growing).

    The Kuvaszok is a most formidable animal - it won't let you forget it's needs or that you have a real dog, not a lap decoration or a throw rug. Apartment life isn't a problem at all as long as you provide them ample outings, keep them stimulated and drain them of energy on training sessions/runs daily. These dogs have unique, soft temperaments and a strong working drive - understanding and knowing how to work with both is the key to their training and success as a polite and productive pet/worker/guard.

    We've not really run into any kind of particular trouble because of her breed that any other handler and other more "average" breed wouldn't have to deal with in puppyhood either. The aloofish attitude has always been there and I am aware of what is to come in adulthood. This is a good dog for me - I do want another breed but that is wishful thinking at this point and I will really need to be living in the countryside in order for me to bring that dog into my life one day. But that's another thread, another topic, and another adventure for another time...

    Romy,

    I will probably by January - it's abit early now and lots of them have their summer pups arriving/already on the ground and since I'm not taking one for right now...yeah.

     
  8. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    I asked, because I am seeing more and more of these dogs or types of dogs in my puppy and obedience classes. Sadly so many of the ppl have no clue as to what they have purchased and are ill equipped to deal with them.
     
  9. StephyMei1112

    StephyMei1112 Blackout

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    I'm glad you did - and sorry if my response came off as defensive, but two things are bugging me; I'm sick of people online and in person looking at me like I'm some dumb pretty little bimbo with no sense of what my dog is and the other is just the idiots that actually take these dogs home and expect them to be the typical family canine, fetching the newspaper, welcoming guests, that comes "pre-trained" etc.

    I've had a few fumbles and struggles with Katalin as any handler would with their dog but all is well and on the right track now - I did really exhaustive research into Kuvasz history, temperament, health, training - the works. It was and is an on going adventure of trial and error but overall it's all good =)
     
  10. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Just sticking my head in to say that I really appreciate the fact that the Glacier Creek dogs seem to do quite a bit of actual livestock protection. Most "LGD" I know are show bred and show bred only.
     
  11. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    lol I didn't take it as defensive and glad you did your homework and things are working out with your dog. If more did that, life would be so much easier for all concerned :)
     
  12. StephyMei1112

    StephyMei1112 Blackout

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    Indeed - beauty and brawn combined. Katalin has a few working dogs in her line but honestly most are show bred it's true.

    They are having puppies in a month or so I believe - someone I know in Oregon might be taking one. But it's too soon for me for sure - next summer is the earliest. I'll get in touch with them come the time for sure though - and once I've had a solid decision made =)
     
  13. casakuvasz

    casakuvasz Guest

    How to shop for a kuvasz from a breeder in North America

    Hello Everyone,

    I just came across this thread and message board because I have a Google search stored for “kuvaszâ€.

    I’m Gail Dash of Casablanca Kuvasz in Southern California and I’m very pleased to see an in depth discussion on shopping for breeders after you have decided on the breed.

    We bought our first companion kuvasz in 1986 and I got a CD on Ilsa (not yet knowing that the kuvasz is NOT an obedience breed!) our second puppy in 1991 was a breeder rehome that we had permission to show and breed assuming he got all his health clearances. And our third was born in 1996 and with good luck she also became a Champion and got all her health clearances. By that time we had studied the breed and other breeders enough to know there was something about each of the breeders in the US we didn’t like (either the dogs they produced or their business practices) that we would just have to do it ourselves if we wanted it done to our satisfaction. So in 1998 our first litter was born and we have produced a litter about every year since.

    At heart I still feel like a first time puppy buyer who is going to make a bad choice and be stuck with a sick dog I’ll fall in love with or a bad business deal I was stupid to agree to, so Neil and I have done everything we can to take those fears out of the puppy buying experience at Casablanca.

    I hope to share a little “inside information†to help you ask better questions when shopping for your kuvasz puppy.

    The advice is probably good for every breed, but my only experience is kuvasz.

    Your shopping/research goal is twofold
    1. Find a breeder you are comfortable with.
    2. Find a breeder who produces the puppy to your standards of type and quality.


    The very first rule is take your time to do all the research you want to do. If you feel rushed, this is not the breeder for you.

    The internet is a great place to start your research. For descriptions of the breed, stick to the clubs for that breed rather than general information sites (like Wikipedia). Foreign club sites are great for looking at photos even if you can’t understand any of the text.

    The Hungarian Kuvasz Club doesn’t have the greatest site, but the kuvasz clubs in Sweden, Finland, and The Netherlands are very good. Those dogs are just about as close to what we call “correct type†as you can get.

    The first tangent I have to go off on is “correct typeâ€. This normally refers to the standard of the breed’s native country. However the AKC Kuvasz Standard was written to match the dogs being bred in this country by the people who wrote the standard in the 1970's. So a dog of “correct type†per the AKC Standard could very well be disqualified from the show ring in Hungary as not being a kuvasz (smaller size, straight coat, round forehead [pronounced stop], prancing movement due to angulation).

    It would be better when shopping for a kuvasz in Canada or the US to ask if it is “Hungarian type†or “American type†since “correct†depends on your politics!

    Kennel websites on the internet should be viewed as advertisements for those kennels. Professional photos, even show photos are probably photoshoped. Look for candid photos to get a better idea of what dogs from that kennel really look like. Look for photos where you can compare the size of dogs. All information on kennel sites should be seen as brags, hype, or even outright lies.

    If websites make claims like “top producingâ€, hold the breeder to that claim by asking for examples to see that they also have more dogs in the OFA database than any other kennel. Phrases like “finished in one weekend†probably means the competition was all from the same breeder, what is called a “kennel championâ€. If a show is close enough, a breeder will drag enough of their dogs to the show so the best one can get all the points to finish their championship. Ask what dogs made up the competition if they brag a dog finished very quickly.

    Another frequently used phrase is something like “top 10 ranking with limited showingâ€. Ask why exactly the dog wasn’t shown that often. More than likely it’s a puppy the breeder got back from a buyer who couldn’t deal with it for whatever reason. Prior to finding it a new home, the breeder showed it a few times.

    The past 4 years has been a real anomaly with Tanner winning so much. It doesn’t take many wins at all to be highly ranked AFTER Tanner’s #1 These are called The Delaney System Stats. This table shows every kuvasz that won a Best of Breed in 2011. Notice how few BOBs it took to be in the top 10!

    Get your hands on some dogs as soon as you can. Find out what shows near you will have “an entryâ€. An email to the Secretary of the AKC Parent Club will help get you pointed in the right direction. Joining all the open Facebook pages as well as Google and yahoo groups will also help you learn where you can meet dogs and what owners of companion kuvasz find is important.

    The OFA site is going to become your frequently used research tool, not only to research dogs and pedigrees, but to verify what a breeder is telling you. If you aren’t familiar with using it, get in there and play. You can use my dogs, I don’t mind. Put this dog in the search box, he’ll give you a variety of ancestors and offspring: CASABLANCA'S CAPT. LOUIS RENAULT. Look at the vertical pedigrees too.

    This is where you can verify the claims of “top producerâ€. Statistically the “top producer†should have pages and pages of dogs with health tests in the open database. Let’s not talk clearances now, let’s just talk about that tests were performed and the results available to the public in the open database.

    The sire and dam of the puppy you are considering should have tests for hips, elbows, thyroid, patellas, and prcd-PRA in the open database in OFA. 3 generations back should also be in there. If you don’t find them, the breeder should be able to explain why.

    The only honest answer is either the dog wasn’t tested or the dog was tested and the result was abnormal and the breeder chose not to release it to the open database. Any other answers are BS. A typical one is “Oh, I’ve never seen that in my linesâ€. Of course if you don’t test you wouldn’t see it!

    You might also come across breeders who say things like “hip dysplasia is nutritional and environmental, x-rays don’t prove anythingâ€. X-rays are the best diagnostic tool we have until a genetic test is invented. A radiologist at OFA may give a questionable hip a better rating than it deserves, but if a hip already shows signs of arthritic changes, that is not going to improve by nutrition or environment.

    I’ve covered type and health, now to the business part of the purchase. Some breeders write contracts some don’t. You want an agreement in writing that protects you as much as it protects the breeder. If it reads like you are the only one who has to do stuff and the breeder doesn’t have to do anything other than hand over the puppy, that’s not a contract. Don’t sign it, tell the breeder to rewrite the agreement so it is fair to both sides.

    It's fine to say, "I need to have my lawyer go over this before I sign it". For some reason people think I might be good at mediating business issues between them and their breeder. They send me the contracts they signed and THEN ask "Can she do this?" Uh, it's rather late to question the contract you signed! The time to question it is BEFORE you sign anything. There will be other puppies, other breeders.

    Even if you can't find anyone you are happy with in North America, you can get a very nice puppy from Europe. Most of the Kennel Clubs will not issue an "export pedigree" unless the sire and dam have been rated "recommended for breeding" by their Club's "breeders committee". I'm sure there are plenty of politics played in the European Clubs too, but at least you'll get puppies from dogs that Club Officials have evaluated. It's much better than our system where anyone has the right to breed any quality dog they want and as long as both parents are AKC the puppies are AKC.

    You also need to be realistic. If you can’t keep the dog and the breeder agrees to take it back, you can NOT expect the breeder to buy it back from you OR pay the shipping. Same with a sick puppy. Let’s say the puppy is diagnosed with some condition that can be fixed with surgery. Your contract guarantees you a replacement puppy. But you want to keep the puppy and have the breeder pay for the surgery. Legally it doesn’t work that way. Depending on what state you live in, the breeder won’t be responsible for more than the price of the puppy, even if you wanted to send the sick puppy back, you would still have to pay the transportation.


    I hope I’m not boring you to tears. Let me just close by asking you to keep this in mind when you are shopping. Kuvasz breeders (and maybe all breeders?) are really sensitive to criticism about their dogs.

    Yes we’re selling a “productâ€, but most of us really feel like we’re adopting out our “children†to deserving families and those families are just helping pay our expenses for getting the puppy to 10 weeks old. When you shop and see dogs you don’t like (and you WILL see some ugly kuvasz!) you would be smart to use your best ugly baby comments such as “Now that’s a puppy!†so you don’t offend the breeder. The breeder will be more helpful and willing to teach you more stuff if your don't insult her dogs.

    Questioning te price in an accusatory way is a bad idea as well. It would be OK to say, “What goes into the cost?†rather than “Why is your price two hundred dollars higher than so and so.


    I’ll be around if you want to tell me my advice sucks or ask me more questions <g>
    Gail
     
  14. casakuvasz

    casakuvasz Guest

    Uh oh, have I made some horrid newbie error posting too much or offending too many? Or have readers simply dropped interest in this topic and gone on to other threads?

    I was hoping for some input if any of the advice rang true or was totally garbage and wasn't worth the time it took me to type.

    Thanks,

    Gail
     
  15. StephyMei1112

    StephyMei1112 Blackout

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    Hi Gail!

    Thanks so much for the tips! and so happy to see another Kuvasz lover on here ^.^

    I'm just wondering though - what are some of the main differentials between Hungarian and American specimens of Kuvaszok? My own observations are that the Hungarian types are abit more..erm...rugged/untamed looking? with a whole lot more curls - the American types are abit more refined and smooth coated. Perhaps you could shed some light on this for me =)

    My little Katalin is in the middle I believe - she's got a great curly coat but has very elegant and striking features. She's very pretty/girly looking but has that mountain dog kinda thing going on too.
     
  16. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    :eek: I didn't even notice your reply until just now. Glad to have you around!

    I don't know that the American types are more smooth coated. That might be an illusion from the way Americans groom for show. If you bathe and use a forced air dryer on a wavy/curly coated dog, especially if you bathed with conditioner, it's really easy to blow the curls out temporarily. Considering a lot of pics of American kuvasz are show pics, that might be the case.

    This is the same dog.

    Normal. She still has puppy coat in this pic too.
    [​IMG]

    Groomed. She grooms out smoother than this for shows.
    [​IMG]
     
  17. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

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    Romy that dog is gorgeous!!
     
  18. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

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    Gail, I think more than anything people might not be really looking at this thread anymore.

    You should absolutely head over to the Introductions forum and tell us a little about yourself. Then make sure you find the pictures forum and show us some pictures of your dogs (that's the best way to introduce yourself on a dog forum!) :p
     
  19. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    This!! ^^^ (especially the pictures part. We like pictures around here :) )
     

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