Koehler training
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I really hope she (politely) lays it on him. I hate that guy. I mean it's one thing to train using methods not everyone agrees with, and it's a total other thing to train like BP does. Balding idiot who thinks he's a marriage counsellor and dog god... I hate the image he puts out for Canadian Trainers, we have no one else really out there (that i know of).
Yes. Very disrespectful behavior.
But then a lot of folks crusading for what they believe is a "righteous" cause will give themselves license to do all kinds of manipulative and abusive things to other human beings.
I guess they feel the end justifies the means.
Reminds me of how the PETA folks operate...
But then a lot of folks crusading for what they believe is a "righteous" cause will give themselves license to do all kinds of manipulative and abusive things to other human beings.
I guess they feel the end justifies the means.
Reminds me of how the PETA folks operate...
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Yes. Very disrespectful behavior.
But then a lot of folks crusading for what they believe is a "righteous" cause will give themselves license to do all kinds of manipulative and abusive things to other human beings.
I guess they feel the end justifies the means.
Reminds me of how the PETA folks operate...
But then a lot of folks crusading for what they believe is a "righteous" cause will give themselves license to do all kinds of manipulative and abusive things to other human beings.
I guess they feel the end justifies the means.
Reminds me of how the PETA folks operate...
Are you kidding me??? Doing just a little bit of assuming are we?? Where did I say she would be disrepectful or interupt the seminar? Did I say what her motatives where or that I even knew what they were? What I did say was that I would enjoy it, if I went. Esp considering that most seminars DO have an open discussion at the end, which can turn into a debate. And why shouldn't he or anyone else not be questioned on their methods? Only someone non-confident or threatened by someone else's knowledge would dodge questions or a debate.
"But then a lot of folks crusading for what they believe is a "righteous" cause will give themselves license to do all kinds of manipulative and abusive things to other human beings. "
Yep that is me, totally .........along with my friends and mentors ......Closet PETA's for dog training. Watching for every seminar that we can attend just so we can boo the presentor, hold up signs and throw paint on them :rofl1: I don't associate on any level with anyone who has or does any corrections on dogs, because they must be evil. Everytime I see someone do something that I don't approve of or wouldn't do myself at the many, many dog show and trials that I attend, I rush right over and tell they are wrong and they MUST convert now.........AMEN!! Yeah that's me.:lol-sign:
"But then a lot of folks crusading for what they believe is a "righteous" cause will give themselves license to do all kinds of manipulative and abusive things to other human beings. "
Yep that is me, totally .........along with my friends and mentors ......Closet PETA's for dog training. Watching for every seminar that we can attend just so we can boo the presentor, hold up signs and throw paint on them :rofl1: I don't associate on any level with anyone who has or does any corrections on dogs, because they must be evil. Everytime I see someone do something that I don't approve of or wouldn't do myself at the many, many dog show and trials that I attend, I rush right over and tell they are wrong and they MUST convert now.........AMEN!! Yeah that's me.:lol-sign:
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I guess I just know too many people who WOULD go to a seminar of someone who's methods they don't agree with just to fight with them (and for the record, I have no clue who the person is you mentioned). I think that there is a way to debate intelligently and a way to debate disrespectfully, and immediately what you described brought to mind a few of my good friends. LOL!
Somebody mentioned Khoeler training to me but didn't say much else about it and I couldn't find some sort of summary on it, but did read something that said it was really brutal so I figured I would ask here to clarify what it was actually like.
I always get really good answers here so thanks for the explanations everyone.
Did kinda hijack the thread though =p
I always get really good answers here so thanks for the explanations everyone.
Did kinda hijack the thread though =p
Adojrts, I know what you're saying. And I agree that you have to have a picture of the 'other' thing, even to better understand your own methods better....understand the opposites or the similarities. I read Koehler's book and found out about his "methods." I have watched many episodes of CM, enough that when I continued to watch episodes, they became re-runs. And I do get people calling me who need help, who have used CM's methods on their dogs. I haven't run into anyone who has used Koehler's brutality. People can be harsh with their dogs. But I haven't seen anyone personally, who treated their dogs the way he advocates. It doesn't take a whole lot of studying or learning about the "methods" (imo) that someone like Koehler uses to get the picture of what they're doing. Most of these "methods" seems pretty primal, unsophisticated and obvious as to what kind of outcome they can produce when you understand behavior, even a little bit.
When I go on a house call, if someone tells me they did this or that aversive to their dog while it was growling at someone who came to their house, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see right away why their dog's aggression has escalated. I concentrate and emphasise on what they should do from now on and explain in basic terms what can result from continuing to use punishment to treat aggression and why. I don't have to know in too much detail what Koehler's methods are because I get why attacking a dog can cause problems. Like I said, I concentrate on fixing the problem and the remedy for most everything with dogs doesn't depend a whole lot on the reasons they got that way. Regardless, the treatment is usually the same.
For instance, even taking a simpler mis behavior like say....barking frantically at kids on bikes. Did this behavior escalate because the people yanked on his collar and said, "no!" when he barked at kids on bikes? Did this behavior come to be on account of punishing the dog (hung him up off of all fours or dunked his head in the kiddie pool until he passed out?) for something else but kids just happened to be in the envirnoment at the time and he associated them with being hurt by the punishment, as a by product? Did the dog get so frantic at the sight of kids on bikes due to being coddled or overly attended to (inadvertantly reinforced?) when this happened?
Desensatizing and changing the dog's view point about kids on bikes would be my way of fixing this. It wouldn't matter what "methods" caused it. I'd still do the same thing. Distance, re-direction, reinforcement for baby steps, all the usual protocal for a desensatizing-counter conditioning program.
Take a resource guarder: Does it matter whether you know if he had a rotten childhood and was deprived food and was hungry all the time? Or that people took away his food? Or that he got punished for mildly defending his food? Or that no one did anything rotten to the dog. He's just like that because it's a natural behavior? Do we have to know what went on, what methods were used on the dog to make him this way? No. The treatment is basically the same regardless.....to change his mind....that people are wonderful when they come close to his food or toys, that there is a big, huge pay off when people come near his possessions, that giving up his stuff gets him better stuff and the same stuff might even be returned to him. It's a win-win situation. Same protocal, regardless.
Shelter dogs frequently come with no known history. Sometimes they're very screwed up...sometimes not. We don't know what methods were used on them, what treatment. But we can shape and improve much of their behavior anyhow.
And for the life of me, I'll never understand how anyone with a love for animals could respect someone who hurts them, hangs them, nearly drowns them, frightens and intimidates them. And I'll never understand this attitude....this blind, robotic feeling of obligation to give absolutely everyone respect. I have people I respect in the dog world. And I have people I do not. Koehler is one of them. I am not buying into this political correctness nonsense that has been purchased by our more current culture in lieu of thinking. Do I think people have the right to throw tomatoes or yell, "boooo" at a seminar? No. But I do think if a debate has been agreed upon by both or all parties, that is not disrespectful....as long as the dialog remains civil. There are usually rules when there's a debate.
And what we think about training methods must depend on what our philosophy is about training dogs in general, I guess. I understand that some of these people wind up with dogs who are explicitly obedient. Who wouldn't be? They're precise in what they do. But to me, that isn't what training a dog is all about. There's a whole lot more to it than that for me. I hate to see a dog so animated, but not having a joyful time. I don't think any training is worth some of the harm that the human race causes dogs. Insult me, compare me to Peta if you like. I am simply a person who loves dogs and will speak my mind on their behalf. I will let people know what I think about what I consider abuse to animals. I will stand up to people who are enthralled with people who abuse animals. No amount of insult or crying about a personal agenda or whining about being like Peta....or other attempts at distraction will dissuade me. I will speak out for the kindness toward dogs because I love them. They can't speak for themselves very well. Actually, no....they do. But too many members of the human race just won't listen.
When I go on a house call, if someone tells me they did this or that aversive to their dog while it was growling at someone who came to their house, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see right away why their dog's aggression has escalated. I concentrate and emphasise on what they should do from now on and explain in basic terms what can result from continuing to use punishment to treat aggression and why. I don't have to know in too much detail what Koehler's methods are because I get why attacking a dog can cause problems. Like I said, I concentrate on fixing the problem and the remedy for most everything with dogs doesn't depend a whole lot on the reasons they got that way. Regardless, the treatment is usually the same.
For instance, even taking a simpler mis behavior like say....barking frantically at kids on bikes. Did this behavior escalate because the people yanked on his collar and said, "no!" when he barked at kids on bikes? Did this behavior come to be on account of punishing the dog (hung him up off of all fours or dunked his head in the kiddie pool until he passed out?) for something else but kids just happened to be in the envirnoment at the time and he associated them with being hurt by the punishment, as a by product? Did the dog get so frantic at the sight of kids on bikes due to being coddled or overly attended to (inadvertantly reinforced?) when this happened?
Desensatizing and changing the dog's view point about kids on bikes would be my way of fixing this. It wouldn't matter what "methods" caused it. I'd still do the same thing. Distance, re-direction, reinforcement for baby steps, all the usual protocal for a desensatizing-counter conditioning program.
Take a resource guarder: Does it matter whether you know if he had a rotten childhood and was deprived food and was hungry all the time? Or that people took away his food? Or that he got punished for mildly defending his food? Or that no one did anything rotten to the dog. He's just like that because it's a natural behavior? Do we have to know what went on, what methods were used on the dog to make him this way? No. The treatment is basically the same regardless.....to change his mind....that people are wonderful when they come close to his food or toys, that there is a big, huge pay off when people come near his possessions, that giving up his stuff gets him better stuff and the same stuff might even be returned to him. It's a win-win situation. Same protocal, regardless.
Shelter dogs frequently come with no known history. Sometimes they're very screwed up...sometimes not. We don't know what methods were used on them, what treatment. But we can shape and improve much of their behavior anyhow.
And for the life of me, I'll never understand how anyone with a love for animals could respect someone who hurts them, hangs them, nearly drowns them, frightens and intimidates them. And I'll never understand this attitude....this blind, robotic feeling of obligation to give absolutely everyone respect. I have people I respect in the dog world. And I have people I do not. Koehler is one of them. I am not buying into this political correctness nonsense that has been purchased by our more current culture in lieu of thinking. Do I think people have the right to throw tomatoes or yell, "boooo" at a seminar? No. But I do think if a debate has been agreed upon by both or all parties, that is not disrespectful....as long as the dialog remains civil. There are usually rules when there's a debate.
And what we think about training methods must depend on what our philosophy is about training dogs in general, I guess. I understand that some of these people wind up with dogs who are explicitly obedient. Who wouldn't be? They're precise in what they do. But to me, that isn't what training a dog is all about. There's a whole lot more to it than that for me. I hate to see a dog so animated, but not having a joyful time. I don't think any training is worth some of the harm that the human race causes dogs. Insult me, compare me to Peta if you like. I am simply a person who loves dogs and will speak my mind on their behalf. I will let people know what I think about what I consider abuse to animals. I will stand up to people who are enthralled with people who abuse animals. No amount of insult or crying about a personal agenda or whining about being like Peta....or other attempts at distraction will dissuade me. I will speak out for the kindness toward dogs because I love them. They can't speak for themselves very well. Actually, no....they do. But too many members of the human race just won't listen.
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Yes. Very disrespectful behavior.
But then a lot of folks crusading for what they believe is a "righteous" cause will give themselves license to do all kinds of manipulative and abusive things to other human beings.
I guess they feel the end justifies the means.
Reminds me of how the PETA folks operate...
But then a lot of folks crusading for what they believe is a "righteous" cause will give themselves license to do all kinds of manipulative and abusive things to other human beings.
I guess they feel the end justifies the means.
Reminds me of how the PETA folks operate...
It does sound like PETA folks, doesn't it.
Yes indeed. And sometimes they'll use cunning, passive-aggressive methods, gas lighting, ignorant sounding distractions with no substance, no science, no back-up or relevance. Yes, I see that too, that they must feel that the end justifies the means. They'll stick to their beliefs, no matter how unsubstantiated they are, no matter how much proof there is out there, just to justify their means AND their end. It does sound like PETA folks, doesn't it.
It does sound like PETA folks, doesn't it.
and now i have to go clean cappuccino off my monitor!
All of this abusive training. Ick. Yes, there are trainers who will hang a dog. Stupid. I didn't understand the object until I read Koehler's first book on basic obedience training. I can't find it, around here somewhere. In his introduction he explains that people have often brought him a dog that is on its way to grave because of the dog's intense aggression and the inability of anyone to control it. This is the dog that he would use very harsh methods on, including hanging. He points out that it works half the time. Half the time with an intensely aggressive dog that every other method (at that time) has been used. A case where someone takes a single method and uses it all the time whether appropriate or not.
He also used the choker. He had the dog owners go home and model the behavior of the week, no punishing. At class the following week the dog was expected to do the behavior and got a pop when he didn't do it. I've never known of a trainer that didn't shortcut this process, using the choker and popping the dog to get the initial behavior, before the dog has been shown what is expected of him.
What I have gleaned from Koehler is the long line work. I outline it in my book and freely distribute the plan on the forum. I do not use a choker, which he did, replacing it with a harness. I use long line with my foster dogs and used it when my permanent dog was a puppy. I can see someone taking a very general view of it, though, and having problems.
Today, I cannot imagine why a trainer would use harsh methods. I find using a choker to be too harsh, and to add hanging and so on- inexcusable.
He also used the choker. He had the dog owners go home and model the behavior of the week, no punishing. At class the following week the dog was expected to do the behavior and got a pop when he didn't do it. I've never known of a trainer that didn't shortcut this process, using the choker and popping the dog to get the initial behavior, before the dog has been shown what is expected of him.
What I have gleaned from Koehler is the long line work. I outline it in my book and freely distribute the plan on the forum. I do not use a choker, which he did, replacing it with a harness. I use long line with my foster dogs and used it when my permanent dog was a puppy. I can see someone taking a very general view of it, though, and having problems.
Today, I cannot imagine why a trainer would use harsh methods. I find using a choker to be too harsh, and to add hanging and so on- inexcusable.