Just when things were getting better...

[sillysally]

I know you are upset, but you need to take a deep breath and realize that all is not lost. Just keep working on it. Decide what your goals are with this dog and then assess how attainable they are. She probably is never going to be best friends with every dog she sees, but getting her to ignore other dogs is reasonable IMHO.

Do you have a positive trainer you can work privately with? Private sessions can be very valuable tools to learn to deal with reactivity/aggression and teach the dog self control in a more controlled environment than the real world can provide and can be a real confidence builder for you.

 

[Specsy]

I actually don't have a private trainer to help me out. I travel 1hour+ to get to the trainer at an all breed school right now with Leo and another dog, Felda.

Bella did her CGC, and she passed it with flying colours. The thing that I DON'T understand about Bella, is that she will LASH out at a dog like crazy the closer we get to the dog on lead the worse she gets but when we are RIGHT next to the dog and she can sniff the dog and suss it out then things get better and she rolls over and jumps around like an idiot, I did this 3 times, about a year ago, Bella had a muzzle the first 2 times, 3rd time didn't. Now I am not sure how far this info is correct anymore because obviously I am not going to even think about doing it as it is a huge risk that I am not willing to take. I did it that time because a force training trainer said I should. It was way dangerous and I wouldn't want to put another dog in jeopardy like that again.

I want to be able to travel with Bella, without it being an issue. That's my dream, and one of the reasons I kept Bella after my gran died (gran chose Bella when Bella was 6 days old, gran died 2weeks after Bella's birth). If my gran had survived she was going to be a companion and helper around the house. Now she does not need to serve the "helper" purpose, but I still want her as my companion.

People have suggested doing bite work with Bella for confidence building as it is believed that Bella's aggression is confidence based. I am SO afraid of even THINKING of doing this. Why would I want to encourage and aggressive dog to bite? I've been told I should not see it that way but it does make me nervous. I just don't want to do that.

At the moment I am using Leo as a walking companion. My area is dangerous especially if you are a young girl, so having a large Rottweiler with you is a HUGE put off to anyone wanting to harm you. However, I really loved walking with Bella, she has better stamina. Although I have a huge yard, I go walking for about 2hours because the terrain varies and it helps me get my fitness up for hiking.

I started hiking because I wanted to take Bella with me on hikes, I wanted her to be my companion on things. I have a companion in Leo, but Bella is my heart dog, and I want her around. Don't get me wrong I freaking LOVE Leo and I brag about him like crazy, but you only even have that ONE heart dog.

 

[RD]

Specsy, I agree with those who said just relax and give Bella a bit of time to recover from the shock of this. What happened was probably quite traumatic to her, as it was to you. In time you will both calm down. Don't dwell on it.

It sounds like the leash and the way she focuses on other dogs just builds into frustration and rage. I don't know how much work you've put into attention training, but if you can start taking her for walks again, just work on getting her to focus purely on you. Start back at square one.

If you pass yards with dogs in them on your walk, and you know those dogs are out there, start asking for her attention maybe 20 feet from the yard (maybe more, maybe less, you know your dog better than I do) and if you get it, turn around and start walking back the way you came. Praise her, give her a toy, give her food. Do an about-face and start walking back towards that yard with the dog, but get a bit closer this time if her attention is still on you. When her attention is breaking or you see her starting to reach her threshold and a hissy fit is incoming, stop what you're doing, get her attention on you, put her in a happy mood, go back to your last successful attempt and repeat that a few times. Build up slowly to the presence of another dog. That's the only thing that really worked with my dog, just slowly building up her tolerance to the presence of other dogs while we're out on walks, and increasing her threshold to the point where she will only snap/bite if the other dog is right next to her and touching her.

Your goal should be to walk by another dog and have Bella in a heel position with her eyes on you. When you can do this near your home, start taking her new places and trying it. As long as you are one step ahead of her and have her attention, she can't react violently. As I'm sure you know, you have to be a proactive handler when you have a reactive dog.

With a dog who displays violent tendencies towards other dogs, I have no idea how to kindle safe, healthy, normal interactions with other dogs. My own dog is completely socially inept, and the best I've achieved with her is encouraging her to pretend dogs don't exist as long as they leave her alone, and protecting her from the rude ones who don't take snarly faces as a hint to back off.

Edited to add: I don't know about doing bite work with a dog like Bella. Her problem is with other dogs, her nervousness is with other dogs, and I am not sure how bitework would do a thing to help her insecurity with other dogs. There are plenty of things you can do to boost her confidence without doing bitework.

 

[Specsy]

That's a great idea RD, would you be able to advise me how to teach focus heeling with something other than food? Bella does not have high food drive, if any (she picks at her food at feeding times too). I have trained focus heeling with Leo, but he is SUPER HIGH food motivated. In previous threads you will have seen I had a battle months ago trying to find what motivated Bella. Attention was a huge factor for her, but only to a certain extent before she gives me the FU. I never train after feeding, always before so she is hungry.

Bella shuts me out when she is in her "attack the other dog" mode. I can't ever get her attention when she's in that mode, shouting, stroking, collar popping, calling her name in a playful way etc. But I think if I can get a SOLID focus heel I MIGHT succeed to a certain extent.

ETA: also no toy drive unless Leo also wants the toy.

 

[milos_mommy]

If Bella is getting to a point where she isn't responding to you, you're already too close to the other dogs. And every single time you allow her to react OR get to a point where she isn't listening, she's backsliding.

I know you can't control every single outside factor on walks, but you need to set it up as best as possible so you know how likely it is to come into contact with other dogs, and so it's possible for you to back away from the other dogs if she does get overwhelmed. Start by walking at quieter times, take her all the way across the street from the other dogs, work on focus. (after you've built up her focus command at home, in the yard, walking with very few distractions). If she pays attention to the other dog and can't refocus, turn around. Start over.

Have you tried a lot of different treats for training? Meat, hot dogs, cheese? Does she work for a food reward if there is nothing else around, at home?

 

[Specsy]

I have tried every treat thinkable. She HATES hot dogs, soft meat is an okayish treat, she like liver bread to a certain extent. Have tried soft dog food, cheese get spat out. Tried peanut butter, tuna cake, umm I really can't think what else. We passed our CGC with liver bread.

EVERY single house in my area has dogs, in every direction. Literally. It is an out of city area and so most people like having dogs for protection on these "mini" farms. The dogs all usually alert each other that there is another dog coming around and ALL the dogs fence bark so it is INCREDIBLY tough.

She will not really work for food in the house anymore than she works for it out of the house.

I think I might have to scrap walking Bella for a little while until we can sort of get the focus heeling done. It was a great suggestion.

 

[milos_mommy]

What you might start doing is literally walking out your front door, across the yard, if she can hear another dog even without seeing it, ask her for focus...if she can't, go back inside. Just keep repeating it. Eventually, you'll get in front of the house next door. If she focuses, great. If not, turn right back around. Make sure she's getting enough exercise at home. Don't push it too much, even if she's doing great, don't go past two or three houses for a while.

Is she on NILIF? That might help her start thinking constantly about what she's doing in order to get attention, food, etc. and make her more self-aware and interested in both food and praise as rewards.

 

[Specsy]

NILIF : I mainly ask for sits, downs, and short waits in order for her to get something. It hasn't awefully changed anything thought. HOWEVER and this is a big however. She does get an ear scratch a rub on the ribs etc, sometimes without me asking ehr to do something. I could stop that HOWEVER does it make a difference if other people do it? I can't lie here. There are other people in the house, and they don't listen to me when I say don't do this or that with the dogs.

 

[milos_mommy]

I'm not sure, I've never withheld attention THAT strictly with the dogs.

When you say you ask for commands from her when she "gets something", what do you mean? Do you do it when she goes through doors? Gets on furniture? Goes outside to potty? Or just when you actually give her something (food, a toy?).

Another question: How is her focus command generally? Do you have a command where she'll make eye contact with you from across the room? What if she's distracted, etc? If you don't have one of those, that's where you'll need to start, and start building up distractions.

The book Click To Calm would probably help you a lot, if you can get it in SA. Also, have you tried Look At That with her?

 

[Specsy]

Our look command is fairly distracted and not solid, I will blame myself for this. I still need to learn just what makes Bella click. It is weird because I found Leo out so fast and he is younger than Bella. Yet I spend the most amount of time with Bella. I have not done "look at that". It is with food and it is with toys and it is with play as well. I always get them all to calm down and then sit and then play or whatever. I don't control petting much. She gets a "wait" at the door and I used to give a release but now she realised that the release command is actually after everyone has stepped through the door then she may come in. That's what I wanted so I don't use a release anymore. I do not have a reward system for couches and beds, she is freely allowed on those. It is just as much her sleeping areas as it is mine. She has slept on the bed since she was a pup.

We have worked clicker before, will look if I can find click to calm. Thanks for all the advice.