John Green, Father of the Little Girl Killed in Tuscon, is my New Hero

[GipsyQueen]

I just wanted to come back the what is freedom thing for a sec, because I though it was interesting (and I slept through it, due to inconviences called time difference. )

Anywho, I think freedom shouldn't be defined by a country. No ones country is better than anyone else. As someone already said all have their strengths and weaknesses. Freedom is what you make it for yourself. If freedom is for you, the constitution of American, than thats ok, thats your personal freedom. Its not something that is arguable, because everyone has the freedom to persive their own idea of freedom. If freedom for you is running around naked everywhere you go, fine. Freedom for me is to live in a world where I don't have to fear everyday that something is going to happen to me, where I can get an education a world where I can vote, and write about anything I want, without being beheaded. That to me is freedom. I am more free in Germany, because I can vote, I have a say in what happens in the country I live in. To ME American was not free, but it may very well be free to you. American was not free to me, because I was not allowed to do things that everyone else takes for granted. My mother was never allowed to work until she got a greencard, they were never allowed to vote - yet the had to live under president bushes rules and had no say. We were not free. However, that is my point of view. I am very well aware that is would not be different in any other country. However, that was not freedom to me - or my family.
You cannot tell a person because you live there and there, you are not free. Its not true, that person may very well feel free in their own world. I don't feel noticably "unfree" because we have more gun regulations here than in the US. Guns to me take away some peoples freedom, and that is cultural and that needs to be accepted. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around people feeling the need to carry rifles on pickup trucks, just as others have a hard time wrapping their mind about me being really glad we have those gun regulations.

 

[corgipower]

BTW I may not have much money to offer but my door is open to any chazzer who is on hard times but willing to apply effort.

While that sounds nice, it's actually not helpful or practical.

 

[motherofmany]

And there's the rub: the LAWS. That's at the heart of it all -- some of us believe, strongly, that the laws on taxation in this country are completely out of hand and have been instituted against the very fiber of the Constitution.

And we will never convince you otherwise of your beliefs and you will never convince us otherwise.

Although, once upon a time, back when I was about 11 or so, I made the same kinds of arguments you are making now.

Oooh, nice passive aggressive slam there Renee. opcorn:

I am so glad my primary advisor recommended and my comps committee allowed the arguments of an 11yo to pass muster

 

[motherofmany]

Lil, something about insurance is that you can opt out; you can choose not to pay and not to get the support. Extortion you have to pay or else bad things happen. You ought to know what happens when you get caught not paying taxes. Ergo, it's more extortion than insurance.

You can opt out. Move.

Choosing to participate in US society means you pay US taxes.

 

[Renee750il]

While that sounds nice, it's actually not helpful or practical.

There are several who have holed up at my home when they hit bad times who seemed to think it was both helpful and practical.

Oooh, nice passive aggressive slam there Renee. opcorn:

I am so glad my primary advisor recommended and my comps committee allowed the arguments of an 11yo to pass muster

Nope. Just the facts. You have no idea.

The expectations of many learning institutions have lowered somewhat in the ensuing years, though.

 

[motherofmany]

There are several who have holed up at my home when they hit bad times who seemed to think it was both helpful and practical.



Nope. Just the facts. You have no idea.

The expectations of many learning institutions have lowered somewhat in the ensuing years, though.

I have no idea of what? Which learning institutions' expectations have lowered? How do you determine that? In what time frame?

You are making something very personal here rather than relying upon reasoned argument to support your beliefs.

Did you look at my link? Do you understand the difference between will and interest as it pertains to determination of rights?

Facts. Stats. Reading (and comprehending) various political philosphers rather than allowing only ones personal experiences to determine what is true. These are necessary things.

Snide comments and labeling those who disagree with you? Not so much.

 

[Renee750il]

No, no idea of me or what my trajectory had been from an early age or just how passive I'm not. Or how much I've mellowed and moved past having to prove I'm right to anyone else.

It matters not to me; I was the kid who wasn't susceptible to peer pressure and I [finally] grew into the adult who doesn't need anyone else's stamp of approval on my own integral sense of what is right and what is not. You are free to keep your own counsel and follow your own mores as well -- fair is fair, and even those who have hated me the most have admitted I strive to keep to that.

 

[motherofmany]

No, no idea of me or what my trajectory had been from an early age or just how passive I'm not. Or how much I've mellowed and moved past having to prove I'm right to anyone else.

It matters not to me; I was the kid who wasn't susceptible to peer pressure and I [finally] grew into the adult who doesn't need anyone else's stamp of approval on my own integral sense of what is right and what is not. You are free to keep your own counsel and follow your own mores as well -- fair is fair, and even those who have hated me the most have admitted I strive to keep to that.

That is fine. What isn't fine is suggesting that my hard fought for and won higher ed is somehow deficient in an attempt to score points off of me in a debate. Ad Hom isn't a winning strategy with me.

Stick to the topic and we'll do just fine. I have no issue with differing POV and do not mind a solid debate. I do mind many of the snide comments and the outright name calling that has been coming from certain people who should definitely know better. (which is what drew me into this assinine discussion in the first place, if I were a dog I would be a protection breed X terrier, kwim?)

Fair enough?

 

[Renee750il]

You seem to have been under the impression that all are required to accept figures and numbers, graphs and glyphs as the final answers to all argument. That's not going to happen. We're dealing with human beings and those parameters won't fit. There are too many wild cards, too much manipulation, paradox and outright falsity. Until we are all programmable and mathematically predictable it is a snare and a delusion to believe all the answers lie therein. (Gods, it pains me to end a sentence with a preposition.)

Kudos on obtaining your education. I'm but a poor, ignorant cumhal with naught in the way of sheepskins and such, the only one in my family with no education.

 

[motherofmany]

Uh, no. A person cannot have a Poli Sci degree and think that numbers constitute final answers. However, they trump personal experience when judging the efficacy of social programs. Measurable outcomes. I find those very important.

Go back to school I went back later in life for a more practical program and thoroughly enjoyed it. My DH is currently doing a really neat program through a local private college for another masters and he really enjoys that. Universities have become much more accomodating of non-trad students.

 

[Nechochwen]

You can opt out. Move.

Choosing to participate in US society means you pay US taxes.

"And if yew dun like it, yew can git out!"

Yeah, you're just supporting the idea that it is more extortion than insurance. Moving is not 'opting out', it's being chased away from the area due to the consequences. That's something that extortion does.

 

[motherofmany]

"And if yew dun like it, yew can git out!"

Yeah, you're just supporting the idea that it is more extortion than insurance. Moving is not 'opting out', it's being chased away from the area due to the consequences. That's something that extortion does.

Neh, as do almost all LAWS. All in how you view it.

 

[Renee750il]

I don't want to go back to school any more. I've spent way too much time in conversations with professors and academics and no longer have the patience to regurgitate what they want to hear to get the grade. (Actually, I never did, lol, but fortunately for me, in my brief time in college, the head of humanities was also my private French horn teacher and a free thinker, which made my life somewhat more tolerable.) Education seems to no longer be a means to teach people to think, but a way to train people to maintain linear thought within specific parameters. "Liberal arts" has become a joke: "do you want fries with that."

A couple of the attorneys I've worked with have offered to help find a way to get me through law school, but really, being an investigator/researcher/paralegal is as close to no life as I want to get, nor did I have any desire to be beholden to that extent. Besides, I'd be in even worse financial shape than I am now because I'd never be able to turn away a client in dire straits and would forever be tilting at windmills.

When I was 14 and a year away from graduating from high school, going to law school was my all or nothing plan, but fate and immediate family intervened. The world is probably a safer -- or at least more static place for it.

 

[Nechochwen]

Neh, as do almost all LAWS. All in how you view it.

Most laws don't steal my income from me under penalty of stealing more money and jail time if I don't let them take it the first time around.

 

[motherofmany]

Interesting view. I am more of an education for education's sake kind of girl and I never, not even once, ran into any kind of thought restrictions. On the contrary. I was challenged to look at alternative POV, alternative sourcing etc. I loved it.

A B.A from a good CLA will open doors beyond Mickey D's

 

[Renee750il]

Maybe your alternative wasn't quite as, err, "alternative." My younger sister went to Oberlin. I found the required POV very narrow, even there.

 

[motherofmany]

Most laws don't steal my income from me under penalty of stealing more money and jail time if I don't let them take it the first time around.

Taxes are not theft. Repeat with me now. Taxes are not theft.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States

 

[Nechochwen]

Interesting view. I am more of an education for education's sake kind of girl and I never, not even once, ran into any kind of thought restrictions. On the contrary. I was challenged to look at alternative POV, alternative sourcing etc. I loved it.

A B.A from a good CLA will open doors beyond Mickey D's

Being in college right now, I find it somewhat stifling. I'm not of a liberal bleeding-heart mindset, and I've been given a bad grade before when I spoke out in class with a viewpoint that differs from a professors on certain subjects. Sure, I can understand your viewpoint in finding a bunch of like-minded people who agree with you on most everything to seem restriction-less.

 

[motherofmany]

Oberlin is fairly progressive. On the "cutting edge" of sexual identity/gender expression. I like them for that. My neighbor's daughter is there now. They are from Belgium. They think of Oberlin as mainstream. All depends upon a person's point of reference.

 

[Nechochwen]

Taxes are not theft. Repeat with me now. Taxes are not theft.

Income tax is theft. I can understand and agree with taxes on goods and services. Income tax is stealing money from me.