It'sYerChoice and Impulse Control Help

[Elrohwen]

I have a question for Chazzers regarding impulse control games. Watson and I practice the standard Doggy Zen and It'sYerChoice type games and he can leave food in my hand, on the floor, wait in his crate when I open the door, wait at the door to go outside, etc. He's really good at these games because he understands the rules and structure.

Beyond that, I struggle with how to really incorporate this into advanced impulse control. How can I apply this on walks? If he sees or smells an animal, he's going to lunge towards it. If he gets close enough to another dog, he will lunge at it to play. He's not even that great in the house and will counter surf constantly if there might be food he can reach.

I guess my question is how do you transfer this type of training from training sessions to daily life? I try to incorporate this into more life training, vs formal sessions, but there is always that wall that we run into. There has been a lot of improvement in general and he's much better about listening to cues to "leave it" or get "off", but he still almost always makes the incorrect and impulsive choice first, despite me trying to teach him to make better choices on his own.

What is my next step? How do I help my "act first, think later" dog to think it through first in all situations? I think part of the answer is that I need to be 100% consistent, but I'm not completely sure how to do that. I don't know how to turn everything in life into an impulse control game.

 

[stardogs]

Practice, practice, practice. It took a LOT of generalization work, but the two dogs I've done the work with in my own pack now default to zen/eye contact irl for the most part.

 

[Elrohwen]

Practice, practice, practice. It took a LOT of generalization work, but the two dogs I've done the work with in my own pack now default to zen/eye contact irl for the most part.

How specifically did you do the generalization work? Like, how do you transfer the impulse control from food/toys/doorways to other dogs/squirrels/etc? Especially with a dog who sniffs everything, it's hard to keep him from self-rewarding, though I do try to use that as a Premack reward if I can.

 

[stardogs]

Squirrels we just found a spot where they are regularly and I took my dog on leash (initially far away, then moving closer). When she looked back at me instead of pulling, I marked and we ran to the tree the squirrel ran up. We started far away to get the look back faster.

Other dogs, we did the same thing with *familiar* dogs who would tolerate a slightly rude approach.

Roadkill. Yep, same thing but rewarded with food from my hand. They were able to walk over it with no sniffing within a few mins.

 

[Elrohwen]

Squirrels we just found a spot where they are regularly and I took my dog on leash (initially far away, then moving closer). When she looked back at me instead of pulling, I marked and we ran to the tree the squirrel ran up. We started far away to get the look back faster.

Other dogs, we did the same thing with *familiar* dogs who would tolerate a slightly rude approach.

Roadkill. Yep, same thing but rewarded with food from my hand. They were able to walk over it with no sniffing within a few mins.

Here's the behavior chain we get into - maybe you can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Watson sees or smells deer in our field, maybe 50 yards away. He lunges, I wait, then he stops and looks back at me. I mark, and then he hits the end of the leash again as hard as he can. If I try to run to where the deer were with him (just to sniff, since they would be gone by then) he would drag me the entire way. lol How do I break the chain of lunge/look back/more lunging? I've had him repeat this chain 20 times until I finally give up and just drag him away or something. Am I just not being patient enough?

 

[sassafras]

Agreed with stardogs, you just have to practice generalizing your cue. So,

See a squirrel/etc - "on by/leave it"
If they don't go on by, stop and back up a few steps - "on by/leave it"
Repeat above until they go by/leave it
Randomly release to run the squirrel up the tree

For me it's a little different because when my dogs are walked in harness/ scootering/ skijoring my dogs ARE allowed to pull, I just don't want them stopping to investigate every little thing. Fortunately over time the running/pulling has become a self-reward for them (especially Maisy), but I still judiciously allow them to investigate stuff they've just successfully gone "on by". Sometimes they don't bother, though.

 

[sassafras]

Here's the behavior chain we get into - maybe you can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Watson sees or smells deer in our field, maybe 50 yards away. He lunges, I wait, then he stops and looks back at me. I mark, and then he hits the end of the leash again as hard as he can. If I try to run to where the deer were with him (just to sniff, since they would be gone by then) he would drag me the entire way. lol How do I break the chain of lunge/look back/more lunging? I've had him repeat this chain 20 times until I finally give up and just drag him away or something. Am I just not being patient enough?

Google "penalty yards" for leash pulling. It's my favorite for "leave it" on leash walks.

 

[stardogs]

It sounds like you are too close in the deer scenario - you want to be close enough he's interested, but able to engage int he game with you *over* the distraction. I'd probably try to start with something like squirrels or familiar dogs that he can actually reach vs deer that he can never catch up to.

 

[Elrohwen]

Google "penalty yards" for leash pulling. It's my favorite for "leave it" on leash walks.

I'll admit that I tried this and got very frustrated before giving up. That probably means it would've worked if I stuck with it. Haha. We basically repeated that behavior chain (he'll lunge/look back/lunge over something like a leaf on the ground), he started whining and getting frustrated, and I gave up. I didn't stick with it long enough for him to figure out what I wanted.

 

[Elrohwen]

It sounds like you are too close in the deer scenario - you want to be close enough he's interested, but able to engage int he game with you *over* the distraction. I'd probably try to start with something like squirrels or familiar dogs that he can actually reach vs deer that he can never catch up to.

Unfortunately we don't see that many small mammals, but I have tried this with chipmunks and his impulse control around them has improved a lot. The deer are really hard though. Or he'll smell something off to the side of the trail and just lunge after it as if he's not attached to a leash.

We don't have a lot of dog friends nearby, but I should really make an effort to practice this in classes. Mostly I just try to get him to leave the other dogs alone (basically with LAT), but eventually his will power breaks down and he lunges at them anyway (or he waits until I'm not paying close enough attention and lunges then).

 

[adojrts]

Agreed, all the impulse games/training have to be trained everywhere, dogs don't generalize.

As for sniffing, I put it on cue with rules.

Rules:

1) Dog MUST be doing some I like first on a loose leash, usually walking nicely but some dogs are so bad we have to start at a sit on a loose leash.

2) Dog doesn't sniff until I give it permission. I use 'check it out'.

3) Dog must not pull me while they are sniffing, if they do the privilege of sniffing is stopped and they are brought back to my side to start again (nicely this is not a correction). That said, it is also my responsibility as the handler to not take up any slack either on the leash. You know how we walk following our dogs with a loose leash and not bothering them when we want them to potty? Same idea

4) Dog MUST stop the second I ask them too, which is rewarded by either food/toy but the best reward is being given permission to 'check it out' again.

I teach this method to every puppy and dog in my classes from puppy to agility and it has worked on hundreds of dogs of all ages.

 

[Elrohwen]

Agreed, all the impulse games/training have to be trained everywhere, dogs don't generalize.

As for sniffing, I put it on cue with rules.

Rules:

1) Dog MUST be doing some I like first on a loose leash, usually walking nicely but some dogs are so bad we have to start at a sit on a loose leash.

2) Dog doesn't sniff until I give it permission. I use 'check it out'.

3) Dog must not pull me while they are sniffing, if they do the privilege of sniffing is stopped and they are brought back to my side to start again (nicely this is not a correction). That said, it is also my responsibility as the handler to not take up any slack either on the leash. You know how we walk following our dogs with a loose leash and not bothering them when we want them to potty? Same idea

4) Dog MUST stop the second I ask them too, which is rewarded by either food/toy but the best reward is being given permission to 'check it out' again.

I teach this method to every puppy and dog in my classes from puppy to agility and it has worked on hundreds of dogs of all ages.

This is exactly what I do on walks and have been doing for a while. I did it with 100% consistency (no slacking, no allowing him to pull ever) for weeks, and saw no results. I was still constantly pulling him back to me and often waiting forever for eye contact or a loose leash (unless I cued it) before allowing him to sniff again.

This is why I think I need to be way more consistent and way more patient, but that's going to be hard for me. Watson is one of the most stubborn dogs I've ever met. I don't mean that in a bad way necessarily, or that he's being willful or anything, just that when he wants something, he is going to try to get it over and over and over again, long past the point that other dogs would have given up or looked to their handler.

 

[adojrts]

This is exactly what I do on walks and have been doing for a while. I did it with 100% consistency (no slacking, no allowing him to pull ever) for weeks, and saw no results. I was still constantly pulling him back to me and often waiting forever for eye contact or a loose leash (unless I cued it) before allowing him to sniff again.

This is why I think I need to be way more consistent and way more patient, but that's going to be hard for me. Watson is one of the most stubborn dogs I've ever met. I don't mean that in a bad way necessarily, or that he's being willful or anything, just that when he wants something, he is going to try to get it over and over and over again, long past the point that other dogs would have given up or looked to their handler.

Start with this then and when it is time to work on the sniffing, start at a sit not walking.

Also work on toy/food impulse control and being released to get them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZarFGdcj8s

 

[Elrohwen]

Start with this then and when it is time to work on the sniffing, start at a sit not walking.

Also work on toy/food impulse control and being released to get them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZarFGdcj8s

I've sort of tried silky leash, but never put a ton of effort into it. I think it's time to work on that again.

For food and toys, his impulse control is awesome. I can throw stuff around, walk him past, etc. Those fall into the structured game category where he has no problem controlling himself, but I can't seem to get it to apply to the real world.

 

[Sekah]

How do I break the chain of lunge/look back/more lunging? I've had him repeat this chain 20 times until I finally give up and just drag him away or something. Am I just not being patient enough?

I would be a) increasing the rate of reinforcement from you, b) varying the rate of reinforcement so it's unpredictable (sometimes he gets 1 morsel, sometimes he gets 10, sometimes you mark within a second of a previous mark, etc) and c) work further away if at all possible. Also consider providing another outlet for his excitement that requires focus on you, like tug, personal play or fun tricks.

Remember that he's a puppy. It'll require loads of practice before you get him to where you want him to be.

 

[Elrohwen]

Remember that he's a puppy. It'll require loads of practice before you get him to where you want him to be.

Yeah, I'm just impatient And it's not like he hasn't improved or matured. Sometimes I just worry that I must be doing things wrong or he would have got it by now, but I'm probably expecting too much for his age and maturity level.

 

[ForestPhin]

Impulse control...

I am a little confused about something. When you are out and about, and he sees an animal, then checks in with you, is he getting rewarded by you? You said you mark it, but is there a food reward involved?

It sounds like Premacking it (aka letting him chase the deer after checking in) is not an option--understandably. So how is he building value for checking in with you?

Sorry if I missed something, I did skim a lot of the posts/responses!

 

[Elrohwen]

I am a little confused about something. When you are out and about, and he sees an animal, then checks in with you, is he getting rewarded by you? You said you mark it, but is there a food reward involved?

It sounds like Premacking it (aka letting him chase the deer after checking in) is not an option--understandably. So how is he building value for checking in with you?

Sorry if I missed something, I did skim a lot of the posts/responses!

That's a good question! I've tried both depending on the circumstance.