Is this a problem?

rubysoho

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#1
And if so, how can I stop it?

Little Zoe is awesome. She is quite the lady and we are working on greeting people calmly. I'm not too worried about her manners with people. But today she has started something new. When playing with her "big brother" (a very tolerant bulldog) she has started tugging on his excess neck skin. Atlas (big brother) doesn't mind and I'm pretty sure he won't correct her either. I am thinking this is not a good way to play but I wanted to see what people here thought. If it is wrong, how should I correct this? She isn't overly excited when she does this - or at least not at the peak of excitement.

Also, is it okay for her to have a variety of toys ranging from soft to hard? The vet wanted me to not have anything soft, just those fake hard bones (so they don't splinter like real bones). Nothing else. And he did say no playing "tug."

Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
 

Doberluv

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#2
If big brother shows complete tolerance of this kind of play, I wouldn't worry about it. Little Zoe is still a puppy, right.... and puppies get away with murder with most adult dogs....for a time. Can you tell if big brother likes her? If he isn't correcting her himself, I wouldn't worry about it. Dogs do play like this, even as adults. So, if he likes her, he probably doesn't mind. Plus, bulldogs are tough that way. Just keep an eye out to see if he seems bothered by it. He'll let her know with a little growl or quick turn of the head, like he's telling her off. Most times, dogs that like each other can handle these things so they don't turn into a problem. So, your question, what can you do to "correct" her.....don't. Correcting, if it's any kind of punishment will only serve to create a negative association with the other dog. If the other dog seems bothered and he doesn't seem to do anything about it, if you feel better about it, you can always distract Zoe and give her another thing to do. Maybe she needs a walk or some romping with you outside. You might want to google something about dog body language...see some pictures and read some descriptions. It mostly comes with experience, but those educational things can surely help. It sounds like you're not recognizing what the dogs intentions are or how they may be feeling.

If the soft toys are being chewed up and torn to pieces, you need to watch that those pieces don't get ingested by the dogs. Otherwise, supervised, they might work out fine. I generally stick to Nyla bones or other hard toys.

Vets have a very limited course on behavior. Unless it is a veterinary behaviorist, I wouldn't give .02 to the advice on behavior. They know medicine and should stick to just medicine.

Tug is a perfectly good game for dogs and in fact, they play it with each other. Tug does not teach opposition, as some people who don't know anything about dog behavior suggest. It is a cooperative "killing" game where two pals are tearing apart a "carcass" together, like wild dogs do in nature. They cooperate to kill and dissect prey. Tug must come with rules, however, just like any game. My rules are as follows: No jumping up to grab the tug toy out of my hand uninvited. No touching teeth on my skin, even by accident or game is over immediately with another try in a minute or so. Only one toy is used for the game.

And first and foremost, the "GIVE" command must be thoroughly taught first. So, trading a variety of toys or other objects for a higher value treat or toy and giving back the initial item helps teach the pup that it's fun to give up his stuff. Make it a fun game. When you hold the treat in front of his nose and he drops the thing he has into your hand, insert the cue, "give." Then furnish the treat. Then give back the thing he had ("take") and repeat. Toss the toy for him now and then to retrieve and coax him to bring it back, give a treat, toss it again.

After about 3 or 4 times, stop showing him the treat first. As your cue word, "give" starts to be associated with the act of giving, you use the treat as a reward, not a prompt anymore. This is important so the dog doesn't get dependent on seeing the treat in order to give you things.

Then take the toy or rope you're going to use for the game of tug and play the give and take game with that. Then start playing a little tug with it. Let him win lots of times. But sometimes stop and ask him to give it to you. Then play some more. Once learned, he must give the toy immediately when you give the cue, "Give." If he does not, the game ends. Try again in another 30 seconds or a minute. If he resists, repeat. If you're consistent, he'll learn the rules. I have played tug with all my dogs. It's fun. They play it with each other. And it builds confidence when they get to win. A confident dog is a much safer dog.
 

Maxy24

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#3
I agree, as long as the other dog doesn't seem to care, chances are it isn't a huge problem. HOWEVER, I think it is VERY important that the dog meet lots and lots of other (stable, friendly) dogs while he is young. This way he can try these behaviors out on a wide variety of dogs and will learn from them what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable. This way if the bulldog happens to be extremely tolerant and lets your pup bite way too hard, these other dogs will put an end to it so that when he is an adult he is not starting fights by playing too rough with other dogs.

I also agree that tug is an awesome game, by far my favorite. I like games where I am actively involved, without tug I probably wouldn't know how to play with my dog. But make sure no teeth on skin or game ends immediately, yelp and exit the room completely, closing a door behind you. Come back in a minute and try again.


I had a dog who only liked soft toys, that was fine, there is nothing wrong with soft toys unless your dog eats them (some dogs can eat hard ones too). Max didn't consume soft toys (other than the eyes which never seemed to pose a problem but could in some dogs I'm sure) but he did untie and then unravel a rope toy. So just supervise the first few times you give any new toy to make sure it is truly dog proof.
 

rubysoho

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#4
I agree, as long as the other dog doesn't seem to care, chances are it isn't a huge problem. HOWEVER, I think it is VERY important that the dog meet lots and lots of other (stable, friendly) dogs while he is young. This way he can try these behaviors out on a wide variety of dogs and will learn from them what behavior is acceptable and unacceptable. This way if the bulldog happens to be extremely tolerant and lets your pup bite way too hard, these other dogs will put an end to it so that when he is an adult he is not starting fights by playing too rough with other dogs.

This is more what I was concerned about. Atlas is very tolerant and does like Zoe a lot. I was more concerned that if Zoe tried tugging on another dog's neck in the future that it could provoke aggression in that other dog who isn't so tolerant. She will be going to puppy classes and doing lots of socialization so that will help.

The vet told me that if Zoe had soft chew toys then she would become obsessive and transfer to chewing other soft things like couches, etc... My first dog (another rescue brought home at 10 weeks) had quite a few chew toys and tugger and he only ever chewed one flipflop. So I thought the advice was weird but then thought maybe I had been lucky with my first dog.

Thanks!
 

Doberluv

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#5
It is good to socialize your pup to other known dogs that are tolerant and patient with puppy antics. Test 'em out watchfully and let them interact. If the other dog gets tired of that kind of play, he/she will most often communicate that to your pup. Be sure the dogs are well supervised and that the dogs your pup plays with are safe. You want only positive experiences. A little growl or snapping at the air ought to get the message across. If it looks like it will go further than that, then you need to step in and not allow your puppy to play with that dog.

The thing about dogs is they don't generalize behavior too well. They can understand one thing....one way and another similar thing (to us) is entirely different to them. They make a sort of distinction between transferring behaviors from one context to another. For example, teaching a puppy to sit in the livingroom might be easy. Asking him to sit in a new place, outside where people are walking past and you're facing the other direction that you usually face is not "sit" to the pup. (until he's had lots of practice.) In the same vein, a puppy can learn to chew on soft toys, but not on your decorative couch pillows. Of course, he must be taught and prevented from chewing on your couch pillows and directed and reinforced for chewing on his toy. This same thing....this not generalizing behavior very well is the reason my dogs know that they are allowed on my couch, but not on the couch at my parents' home or my two wing back chairs. They only use the couch. If dogs could not make that distinction, there are all kinds of things dogs learn that they couldn't learn.

But as far as puppies chewing on lots of things in your house, it takes time and patience for them to learn the ropes. Prevention of getting at things you don't want the pup to get after and showing him what he can play with is the best way. Put the things away that you don't want him to get as best you can. If he is reinforced (having fun with/praise etc) for playing with his chew toys, (soft or hard) that behavior will increase. If he is prevented from being reinforced (having fun with) things you don't want him to have, that behavior will not develop....or it will extinguish if it has begun.
 

rubysoho

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#6
Thanks, Doberluv!

That pretty much confirms my original thoughts. The vet just made me question everything I "knew"... probably doesn't help that it has been 10 years since raising a pup. Anyway, Zoe hasn't had problems with chewing on furniture, etc.... She is very closely watch. In the beginning I'd just clap my hands together really loud to distract her the second she put her teeth on something she shouldn't chew and then gave her another toy that was appropriate. Seems to be working well so I am going to keep on doing that. :D

We just found the access to a huge bike trail in the area, I am very excited. Already she is learning to sit when she gets super excited watching traffic/bikes/joggers/etc.... I still have a very excited/jumping puppy when people see her and start squealing over her cuteness though. :rolleyes: I try to politely use a calmer voice and tell Zoe not to jump (which she doesn't understand yet but it helps get the people to settle down more which in turn helps Zoe learn to greet a bit more calmly).

Thanks for all the responses, everyone!
 

Maura

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#7
Agree with the others. Your puppy needs to be introduced to more dogs than just one very tolerant and patient bulldog. Tug is fun, as long as you use it as interactive training. Your puppy should be learning give (give up the tug toy) kill (attack tug toy) sit (mind before killing) down (mind before killing) wait (stay put while I walk in a circle around you), the tug game is the reward.

What are fake hard bones? If you mean the soft nylabone, that's fine. Otherwise, give your puppy real raw bones, sized to her size. If she is a toy poodle, a chicken wing. If she is 20 pounds, a chicken back. If she is bigger, something bigger, but small enough she can pick it up and carry it. Chewing on real raw bones will help to set her teeth. Refrigerate when not being chewed, and throw it out after three days (4 or 5 days if you are refrigerating it) because they will dry out and start to splinter.
 

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