Is nervousness/fearfulness enviromental or inherited?

maybe532

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#1
A relative of mine has 2 mixed breed dogs and the female may be pregnant (by his male). I wish that he had spayed/neutered his dogs but I doubt they have the money for that, that is a whole other issue.
My question is, is fearfulness, timidness, shyness, whatever you want to call it, an inherited trait or is it environmental? Both dogs were found abandoned, the male as a pup and the female as an older pup, maybe 6-9 months. The male is a mix of a lot of things but they believe based on his traits that he has some boxer, pit bull, and lab (probably a whole host of other things). He's maybe 40 lbs and is dark brown and black (brindle). He has a ton of energy and is very friendly and extremely well trained. The female is very dark brown and they think she is a mix of shepherd, lab, pit bull (and again, some other breeds) and is also around 40 lbs. She is also very well trained. I have only met her twice and the first time she stayed in the shadows and I barely saw her. The second time (last month) she growled at my husband when he was examining their oldest son (my husband is a physician and was examining the boy for swollen lymph nodes, stuff like that). Then the dog growled at me while I was holding our infant (I was just standing there and talking). They put her in the other room thankfully. It is scary when a dog growls at you when you are just standing there, not doing anything threatening. I wasn't even looking at her! Like before, I didn't even notice her because she had made herself invisible. I know from what they have told me that she has growled at their childrens' friends, as well as at anyone that dares step in their yard. But she is good with their 3 boys (8, 12, & 16).
Is this a trait she is likely to pass on to her pups or do you think she was just not socialized/had some previous experience before they got her that made her fearful? We may consider taking one of the pups but I am hesitant because of the female. I do want my next dog to be protective/guard dog in nature but I don't want us to end up getting bitten. Breeds we are considering are GSD and boxer, to name a few (all mixes, we are looking to rescue but would like the predominant breed to be one that we know we could live with).
I trust their male with my kids and he loves to interact with them. They are both easy to train, another trait I am interested in. They don't shed and both have shorter hair so they don't need professional grooming (another must for me-Lucy and Koda are enough for me). They are a decent size, don't demand a ton of exercise, basically have all the traits I am looking for in my next dog, except for the female's fearful nature.
What do you think? Other than the fact that these dogs shouldn't have been allowed to mate!
 

ACooper

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#2
It can be either and/or BOTH IMO. A lot of it can be lack of proper puppy rearing, as in lack of socialization, lack of training in different situations, being exposed to different things when they were younger. A lot of it can be inherited.........it all goes back to breeding dogs with good temperaments.

If you know the parents are (one or both) timid/fearful, it would be a chance you take getting a pup from them. She might suffer from totally environmental cause, but you won't know that until you get a pup, attempt to socialize and train it. Are you prepared to live with a dog like that? If not, I'd take a pass on a puppy from them.........
 

sammgirl

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#3
Um...

I think it's like 70% genetics and 30% socialization. I think that alot of fearful dogs could probably be fine pets if properly socialized early on in life.

However, you have some dogs that will never be normal no matter what you do.
 
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#4
I'd say that's poor genes. Dogs with good temperment recover from bad experiences. Even undersocialized dogs get over it if they have good temperment once they're in a family setting. People like to make excuses for their dogs, especially when they want to breed them.
 

joce

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#5
I think some dogs,just like some people/families, are just wired wrong.

From my experience if the mother is aggressive the pups will pick that up. They learn how to act from her those first eight-ten weeks they are with her and that includes how to respond to situations and people.

I think it would be less a problem if the father was the aggressive one.

Of course with lots and lots of socialization you should be able to fix this when the pup is young but not many people know how to do it and its a lot of work. People end up yelling at the pup for growling and making it worse etc etc.

We have taken pups form aggressive dogs and bottle fed them and they ended up better than the pups from our semi aggressive mom foster litters where she stayed the whole eight-ten weeks. I have seen pups at eight weeks copy thier moms rumbly bark ro growl at people.

Anyway you could take his dogs to a low cost spay an neuter? They will do them with the dog pregnant.

Another thing to think of is all of these breeds you think these dogs are do in fact shed. You may have seen them at times where they are not shedding much but I guarantee a lab or shepherd mix is going to have some times of crazy shedding.

If it were me I would offer to take the dogs and fix them first. If he says no still offer to take mom to get her and the pups semi socialized. Problem is with kids around mom might be more protective with the puppies there.If you really want one learn how to pick a dog thats kind of in the middle temperament range.
 

maybe532

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#6
I doubt she is socialized other than people that come over and maybe a few relatives that allow dogs to be brought to their house. I know that they work with her a lot and are trying to help her overcome her fears (for instance, cameras scare her).

I know that by choosing a shelter dog I have no way of knowing what their parents were like. I also know that I could get a puppy that displays none of their parents traits. I know that there are variations among even purebreeds. I also know that dogs are born with their personality, that you must shape it. Like if it is shy, it will always be shy to a degree. I guess I have a 50/50 shot. I guess picking out the more confident one of the bunch would make the odds greater.
 

maybe532

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Joce, I must have been typing when you posted!
I know they don't shed horribly (year round) but yeah, the female probably will shed heavily twice a year. I hadn't thought of that. Koda, our newfie/golden mix sheds lightly year round and heavily once a year and Lucy sheds very little. I know I don't want a husky-like shedder.

There is no way to even suggest to offer to pay to have their dogs spayed/neutered or to "foster" his puppies/momma. I already suggested to them before they had the female and before the female was old enough to go in heat that they should get them spayed but they are not interested. They honestly think they can find great homes for all of them, even if it means raising the puppies until they are older so the new owner does not have to housebreak them or go through the puppy phase. The husband does not work so he spends all his time with his dogs and they are honestly they know more and have more self control than my dogs. Their oldest boy spends quite a bit of time with the dogs too, he is one of those natural dog people.
We got our cat from them and they socialized the litter very well. We got the sweetest, most laid back cat. He wouldn't let us take the kitten home until it was close to 5 months old because he thought it needed to be with it's litter and I know he worked with the kittens every day. So I know he will work with the puppies just as much, if not more since the cats were just outside cats that came with his property.
 

maybe532

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#8
Re-reading my last post makes me sound like I am defending him, I am not, I am just trying to think of every possibility and try to make a good decision.
 

Romy

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#9
If you interested in getting a puppy from that litter, I would wait until they are on the ground and you can see for yourself what kinds of temperaments they have. Shyness and fearfulness shows up pretty early on. A puppy that runs up to every person and doesn't show any fear of garbage trucks, gunshots, and other loud sudden things will likely grow up just fine with continued socialization. There are assessment tests you can do on puppies to get an idea of how they respond and how quickly they recover to being startled.

If the dad is fine, there's a chance at least one of the puppies will be starting out with a stable temperament.

This article is pretty interesting, going through the various stages of puppy development and how to condition different nervous responses in/out of them. I don't agree with the part about letting them go to new homes at 7 weeks, but there appears to be some good information to be gleaned from it.

Von Falconer K-9 Puppies 1st Night To 1st Year
 

FoxyWench

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#10
personally ive found parents temperment to be a HUGE deciding factor on their offspring, theres only so much socilization can do.

as a side note, if they cant afford a spay im not sure how they expect to be able to afford to raise a litter.

id personally wait untill the pups are not only on the ground BUT also wait untill their old neough to start showing their personalities before deciding if your taking one...
 

maybe532

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#11
Yes, I think waiting to see them and them being old enough to show their personality is a great idea.
We had a fearful dog before and she was a great dog despite her quirks. She was well socialized and was not fearful-aggressive.
They can't afford to raise a litter. They are (not to generalize or stereotype!) country folks that don't use vets unless it is an injury that cannot be dealt with at home. That is an entirely separate issue, however. They know how I feel and there is not much more that I can do beyond offering advice should they ask.
 

joce

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#12
You really need to sit and talk to your relatives because if they plan on keeping the pups till they are housebroken they may be breeding with themselves and their parents by that time.
 

maybe532

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#13
Ew, I hadn't even thought of that! Wow, I will have to mention that to them, thanks for pointing it out. I wonder if that will make them rethink this whole not spaying/neutering thing.
 

lizzybeth727

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#14
personally ive found parents temperment to be a HUGE deciding factor on their offspring, theres only so much socilization can do.
I agree. IMO, not socializing will do a lot of harm to even a "good" dog, but socializing will not make up for bad genes.... if that makes sense.

My friend has a dog she got from a good breeder, from parents with good temperments, and then she socialized the crap out of the puppy. :) She's a pro trainer, and this wasn't her first puppy, so she did know the difference between "good" socialization and "bad" socialization and all that. The puppy is two years old now and still is extremely fearful of new situations, people, dogs, etc. She was afraid of the fire place at the beginning of winter (her second winter in this house, no less), and wouldn't come into the living room for like 3 weeks until she got over it. :rolleyes: So yeah, I think a LOT of it has to do with genes and the individual dog's personality.
 
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I agree. IMO, not socializing will do a lot of harm to even a "good" dog, but socializing will not make up for bad genes.... if that makes sense.

My friend has a dog she got from a good breeder, from parents with good temperments, and then she socialized the crap out of the puppy. :) She's a pro trainer, and this wasn't her first puppy, so she did know the difference between "good" socialization and "bad" socialization and all that. The puppy is two years old now and still is extremely fearful of new situations, people, dogs, etc. She was afraid of the fire place at the beginning of winter (her second winter in this house, no less), and wouldn't come into the living room for like 3 weeks until she got over it. :rolleyes: So yeah, I think a LOT of it has to do with genes and the individual dog's personality.
Are you talking about my dog? Oh wait, no... she's 4.

Socialization can only take a dog so far. If the genes aren't there, or the dog is just wired wrong socializing will never hurt, but it can't fix what mother nature did.
 

ihartgonzo

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#16
If these people are not responsible enough to spay/neuter or keep apart mixed breed dogs with sketchy temperaments, how are they responsible enough to properly raise and socialize an entire litter of puppies? :(

Personally, I would not take a puppy from them. Early socialization and care is so important. I would definitely try to lend a hand with the litter and find them a free/low cost clinic to alter the parents and puppies, though.
 

maybe532

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#17
I have given them the number to the low cost clinic that is near them and really that is all I can do. I will likely end up passing on any puppy because I do have small children and I do believe temperament is genetic. I also agree that it has to do with environment but I think more so genetic. I don't have any actual scientific proof but after hearing what you guys had to say and from what I already knew I think I would feel comfortable saying it is 1st genetic and 2nd environment. Like they are born one way or another and they stay that way, and their environment either exaggerates or improves their permanent temperament. I think that is a safe assumption, as some breeds are known to be reserved with strangers, etc.
I think I was trying to answer that question, as well as find good reasons to say no to a cute puppy face. You all know how hard that can be! Thank you for providing me with many good reasons to say no when my kids or husband think they are so cute and want to take them home.
 

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