Improving, but still need help

[Demonic Angels]

Hello everyone,
I need some advice on what I should be doing to help Mimi deal with these situations...
We've worked with several trainers regarding her reactiveness towards other dogs, especially labs. (We follow Suzanne Clothier's methods quite closely, if that means anything)

She's improved quite a bit, both on-leash and off.
On-leash, she no longer lunges while barking, but will walk stiffly past while keeping a good eye on the other dog
Off-leash, if the other dog comes running up to her, or is friendly with Nana, she's absolutely fine. My three issues are these: 1)with some dogs (I'm assuming it's the ones she's nervous about) she will crouch to the ground until they get close then immediately run up into their face (I keep telling her she's NOT as big and intimidating as she thinks, but hey). She's being VERY rude, and I'm not sure how to teach her otherwise.
2)sometimes she will greet a dog normally (butt sniff, no direct eye contact), start walking away, THEN do a 180 and try to chase the dog away. (?? she's such a wimp.)
3)if the other dog is CLEARLY intimidated by her, she will chase (and of course, the dog, being scared, will naturally run...)

These only happen maybe once in a walk, and I guess she is allowed to not like 1 dog out of all those she meets, but how do I deal here? Any insights as to WHY she's doing this??
Thanks!

 

[Magriet]

Clever Dog!! She is obviously "fooling" the other dogs by appearing scared or uninterested and then she lunges. As to how to train her otherwise, I really think it will be helpful to figure out the exact circumstances that triggers this behavior, then the people more knowledgeable than me will probably be able to help you with advice on how to train. All I know is that all animals always have a very good reason for a pattern of behavior and that if you figure that out, the problem's half solved.

 

[Demonic Angels]

She's too clever! One of our trainers said that it's always the smart ones that have reactiveness issues. The really easy going ones are so nice to everyone (and dog). Which portrays the difference between Nana (my golden) and Mimi perfectly.

I know that most (if not all) of her problems stem from fear and lack of self confidence. That's what you get when they're not socialized at a young age...

She also used to be afraid of strangers, and would never go near them. Nowadays, she's liking alot of the people she meets. The only thing is, now she's created a new problem, and I have to teach her to not JUMP UP on the people she likes!!

 

[Saintgirl]

I have a few questions. When she runs up to another dog what are her behaviors? Is she snarling, barking, growling, or just running up to them? When she is chasing another dog what are her behaviors? Growling?etc?

 

[Demonic Angels]

She's usually silent, no barking when she's running up to them. She does have her tail up and stiff though, so she's definitely trying to intimidate. What confuses me here is that she's been on her belly to the ground (so is she's showing somewhat docile manners) then when the dog comes up closer, she runs up into their face. It's like a thug who comes and tries to intimidate you because they don't really have the strength to fight you.. She's obviously trying to show that she's NOT afraid.

She DOES bark when she's chasing said terrified dog, or when she's whipped around to chase the dog. Her barking is usually different in these two situations though.

When she's chasing the scared dog, she's just sounding like a bully, whereas if it's the 'I'm-going-to-attack-you-from-behind' situation, she's sounding somewhat insulted...it's a slightly higher pitch bark, with obvious 'go away' tones to it...does that make sense?

We've been working on raising/lowering her arousal level...she's pretty hyper right after one of these incidents, so I'll work on bringing her back down to a level where she's focused on me..then we'll continue our walk, and she'll be fine with other dogs until we run into another one she doesn't like the look of...

:sigh:

 

[lizzybeth727]

She crouches down on the ground (a play posture, like play-bow), then jumps into the dog's face (licking another dog's face/mouth is a submissive/play posture).... Call me crazy, but unless I could see your dog doing this, I'd say she's trying to play. Tail up and stiff can also be a play posture.

The sound of her bark is not as important as what her body language is saying while she's barking.

You say that you have worked with trainers about this, but have the trainers actually seen her in a real-life situation (outside, on your walk) do this behavior? I think that's really what you need, there are so many subtle body movements that most people won't notice, but to trainers/behaviorists, these body movements tell you everything.

 

[Saintgirl]

I'm with you Lizzybeth. Perhaps you have read her body language wrong. A down is typically a submissive, come and play move. It means I'm friendly and I want to play. Usually a dog who is reactive will not lie down before meeting another dog. They posture (which is a stiff body standing tall), raise hackles, growl, stare down the other dog, etc. But going down before running up to greet another dog is usually not an aggressive behavior. As the other dog continues to approach her she runs up to greet.

Running after another dog is also a play move. A favorite gane for dogs is chase, and all it takes is one to run for the other to take off. Many dogs bark while chasing other dogs, a prime example would be a beagle baying on the chase. A slightley higher pitch bark suggests a excitement- not aggression.

Maybe she is nervous when greeting some dogs. The down position would suggest that she is showing them that she is submissive and is not a threat to them. This could explain why she does this to some dogs and not others. However, the behaviors that you have explained her do not indicate aggression. Maybe you are humanizing her body language, running up to another dog does not indicate that she is trying to bully another dog. If she were to posture, slowly approach the other dog, stand over them, well then I would say that you have some issues to work on.

 

[Brattina88]

have you ever read Click to Calm by Emma Parsons ??

 

[Demonic Angels]

Thanks for the input everyone.
Lizzybeth & Saintgirl- From reading your posts, I can visualize what postures and behaviors you mean, but I think it's still different from what Mimi is portraying. She goes into a crouch, but it's more like she's stalking something than just the 'hi let's play' (which other dogs do to her, and she ignores). It may be because of her docked tail, but there's something very stiff about her entire posture. She tends to be very rude in these situations, staring at the other dog and coming straight at their face.
Lizzybeth, I agree with you that I should have a trainer come on a walk and see what she's like...but all I get is scoldings about how she shouldn't be off leash to begin with.
I've also had many talks with our trainers, and to some degree, I believe most of the behavior she is showing is natural, and so instead of 'correcting' her, we've been working on reassuring her and making her more comfortable in these situations. But there is no doubt that she can sometimes be rude, and I'm not sure how to correct those without giving her the feeling that 'mommy's really tense and something's not right' because that's when she starts getting snappy.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Lizzybeth, I agree with you that I should have a trainer come on a walk and see what she's like...but all I get is scoldings about how she shouldn't be off leash to begin with.

I'm sorry, I must've misunderstood - I thought that since you said this happened while you were on a walk, that she WAS on leash. In that case, YEAH, I agree, she needs to be on leash.

If you think she's being aggressive, how in the world do you expect to keep her from hurting another dog (or having that other dog attack her back), if she's not on leash?

What do you do when she starts to chase after another dog off leash?