I'm Growing Disappointed

[Herschel]

Danl, sorry if I strayed from your original topic. I do feel everyone has a right to speak their minds and they deserves respect and considerate behavior from members while doing this. (As long as they themselves behave in a like manner.) Unfortunately, some of Richlings' students who posted on his behalf were much more rational and reasonable than he was.

DanL, I agree with you. A lot of these Richling and +P threads have gotten out of control. In fact, that's part of the reason that I haven't been reading/posting very much lately.

I was impressed that Richling took the time to come onto this forum to defend himself. Instead of having a logical argument, it was a 50 page bash-fest. In response, I started the "Martin Richling Q&A" thread. After a few pages of logic, it become completely irrational (on both sides) and I stayed out of it.

People have different views on just about everything. There is a logical, mature way to discuss our views and there is an irrational, rash way to argue. Lately, the entire training sub-forum has been plagued with hyperbolic arguments and very little training advice.

I thought Summit's post was well-written and honest. So what if it came a few days too late? It should have served to help clear up some of this controversy and educate people. Instead, it was ignored, shut down, and locked.

Pretty soon I guess we'll be coming down on anyone that doesn't feed EVO, right?

(For the record, I can't stand "training collars", let alone using staves for corrections. My training methods may be completely different than Richling's but I'm not going to prevent someone from speaking his mind on this forum just because I disagree.)

 

[BostonBanker]

Unfortunately, some of Richlings' students who posted on his behalf were much more rational and reasonable than he was.

This is sort of along the lines of what I was thinking. Imagine how this whole thing would have gone down if Richling himself had never taken part (I guess in my fantasy, his writings would have to be ignored as well). There have been trainers on here before who used corrections in one way or another. Sure, there were always some back-and-forth comments when it came up, but I think it was handled respectfully by everyone. But then someone comes in with a one of the nastiest attitudes I've ever seen online, and everyone gets their backs up.

There were several people who came on during the MR debates who spoke their minds clearly, were reasonable, and didn't need to resort to name calling. Summit, Dutchie...there was one other that I really don't want to go back and find. I may not agree with the training methods of those they follow, but if they can avoid calling me "kiddie", they can speak their mind.

Pretty soon I guess we'll be coming down on anyone that doesn't feed EVO, right?

Sorry, if you are not feeding RAW, you are abusing your dog!!! How cruel can you be?? (attempt at levity)

 

[summit]

I thought Summit's post was well-written and honest. So what if it came a few days too late? It should have served to help clear up some of this controversy and educate people. Instead, it was ignored, shut down, and locked.

I never addressed that, did I? (My post being rather late in the game, that is...) I broke my hand, have been in a cast until today & was up in the northwoods of Ontario for the past few weeks. Otherwise, I would have made an attempt to enter this mess with some calm logic a bit sooner.

Regardless, I'm glad that my intentions came across correctly to at least several people. I now feel that my one-handed adventure in typing wasn't a complete waste of my time...!

 

[Buddy'sParents]

A lot of these Richling and +P threads have gotten out of control. In fact, that's part of the reason that I haven't been reading/posting very much lately.

...

I thought Summit's post was well-written and honest. So what if it came a few days too late? It should have served to help clear up some of this controversy and educate people. Instead, it was ignored, shut down, and locked.

It's the very fact that these threads have gotten so out of control that we don't need another one at this moment. No one has been handling themselves well, on either side or in between- these debates- or what have you have gotten out of hand and there was no stopping it outside of locking the threads, because it was clear that neither side would let up.

Is that what we want this forum to be about? Of course not. Had the thread been sometime down the road, maybe everyone could have been objective about and engaged in a discussion regarding it, summit certainly seemed to be a level headed person who wanted to discuss, but it was clear the discussion would not go well.

I literally begged Doberluv to lock the thread last night. I couldn't imagine the forum getting into yet another nasty argument in which no one would be open-minded enough to see the other side, in which all sides were to get ugly and nasty and insults flung.

I'm disappointed in all sides.

We seem to have forgotten what this forum is about. It's about training. Helping people, offering advice. Not everyone has to take the advice, not everyone has to agree, but people come here for help (some, unfortunately to instigate) and if we want to be an open-minded, respectable forum, then we need to practice what we preach.

 

[Saje]

I have to agree with Zoom and I see how some of the points DanL has raised are valid. There are a lot of disappointing posts from new and old members. That being said I think all of us understand how it comes about. Everyone on this forum is very passionate about their dogs and it's too easy to get worked up about something you love that much. But it wouldn't hurt to take your time and possibly a step back before people jump to conclusions or resort to name calling.

Summit, that was a lot of writing for one hand! I hope you heal quickly.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Unfortunately, I was one of the ones that had not much to say, other than how disgusted I was with Richling's training methods and I apologize for that.

As much as I dislike Richling and what he does, does not mean that his students are all as bad as him or just like him. They may just use SOME of his training methods and not all of them.

I trained with someone that was quite aggressive and after talking to people on this forum about it and thinking (for a time) that MY trainer was right in what he was doing, I realized how wrong it was.

I tried the methods that were explained by trainers here and they worked much better. But, I don't use EVERYTHING that was suggested to me.

So I want to thank those people here that helped me, and I encourage the new posters here to listen to what the trainers here have to say.

Even though it might not be "your thing" right now, they really do know what they are talking about.

As much as a dislike abuse on animals, and would not want Richling himself as a member of this forum, I am not going to discourage people (students of his or not) from joining this forum as there is a lot to be learned by them and a lot that can be taught to them.

ETA: Summit, it is nice to see another Canadian? on the board.

 

[Laurelin]

I don't post on here as I am pretty much a novice to obedience. I do however read some of the advice and find it all very interesting.

I understand why Summit posted, and I don't think it necessary to close that thread as he/she (sorry) seemed to genuinely want to discuss. I do know that most of our minds are made up, but maybe we could learn a bit from each other. I don't see why that thread was closed when the Richling Q & A was left open for so long with so much childish behavior allowed. Oh well, not my call...

However, I think as Richling was here himself, anyone that is interested in this should look up his own posts and read his own text. It's.... illuminating. Read what he wrote and said to people then decide what you think of him for yourself . We had the 'priveledge' of getting to hear it from his mouth. I for one was dissapointed that he did not really seem to answer the questions much at all. I think it could've illuminated his training methods further. Instead, all we got was down talking to people (many of whom were asking serious questions respectfully) and I think that says a lot.

That's just my 2 cents.

And this is just a request that has nothing to do with Richling really, but in general. I hear people use the term 'correction' or 'correcting the dog' in their replies, but yet no one really says HOW they correct dogs. Give specifics. There's a big difference between a stern 'No!', a leash correction and something like a stave correction. If you are sure of your training methods, then be specific because as it stands, I don't know what type of 'appropriate corrections' are being given. Sorry, but that's just something that kind of bothers me.

And now I'll go back to the happy off topic part of the forum...

 

[summit]

I hear people use the term 'correction' or 'correcting the dog' in their replies, but yet no one really says HOW they correct dogs. Give specifics. There's a big difference between a stern 'No!', a leash correction and something like a stave correction. If you are sure of your training methods, then be specific because as it stands, I don't know what type of 'appropriate corrections' are being given.

As far as dogs trained in our group go...the term "correction" applies to a verbal and/or physical word/action that adequately corrects the dog in a specific situation. That varies GREATLY depending on the dog involved as well as what has transpired. Using the exact same correction for every dog in every situation would not work at all, as both over and under correcting are inhumane. In addition, in our system, correction must be balanced with sincere praise in order to achieve balanced results.

 

[Psyfalcon]

What happened to not spanking when members bicker?

I've only been drawn in here because of the thread in the other room. Simply put, I do not normally read here because of the very things people are denying. Unlike any other forum, there is no sense of free speech in this particular sub forum. You either tow the line or run the risk of being accosted by the moderating staff. Its not even the latest set of posts. Find one on Ecollars that does not end in a brawl. I'll wait.

Are the attacks blatant, no. The threads however degenerate into 2-4 members carrying on about how their method is best, in succession, for oh, 5 pages. No where in this line of posting is any information actually helping the poster, or swaying to anyone else reading the forum. At any time, there are 50-200+ non registered users reading the board. Why would anyone join to ask a question?

Lastly, our most frequent posters said in one of the locked threads, seem to be saying something to the effect that it was laughable to think that Doberluv or Dr 2little could be bullying other members. To this, I suggest everyone return to middle school for a day. In some of the threads, they, and others, monopolize the conversation, and therefore shut out both the OP and anyone else responding. This is a form of bullying. Calling others who train with anything more than a stern no abusers of their dog can be considered bullying. Sometimes the response of our members far outweighs the original topic.

 

[Martin Richling]

How are you all doing?

 

[Laurelin]

As far as dogs trained in our group go...the term "correction" applies to a verbal and/or physical word/action that adequately corrects the dog in a specific situation. That varies GREATLY depending on the dog involved as well as what has transpired. Using the exact same correction for every dog in every situation would not work at all, as both over and under correcting are inhumane. In addition, in our system, correction must be balanced with sincere praise in order to achieve balanced results.

Thanks for that clarification.

 

[CelticxConnections]

I for one this whole thing would just get worked out or dropped. I didn't really even want to post a queston about training Duke to back up because of this fight. Its gotten out of hand guys.

I don't like the Richling training method, I don't beleive in Creationism. Do I go out of my way to start fights about either? Heck no, I generaly avoid arguing about anything. I might logically debate about this sort of thing but I keep my emotions out of it and I'll stop when it gets out of hand. Not everyone thinks the same way! Lets respect each other and let things go.

If you think they way someone trains is wrong say something in passing such as "So-and-so I don't agree with you maybe if you tried this-and-that you might like it beter. I know it worked great for me" and end it there. You don't have to go and have a 50 page bicker about who's right with people ganging up and attacking people.

I'm under the impression most people here are adults. Well it doesn't seem like it from these training posts and I'm sorry to say it. Can be please just clean up this mess. I say either do it the logical way and try to drop it and exept not everyone thinks the same or we all get together and beat the people who don't agree with us with foam swords until one side or the other surrenders. Its clear no one is going to make us sit in the time out chair until we see reason.

Sorry about that off topic rant or if I upset anyone. I didn't mean to its just that seeing all these posts and topics with people attacking each other is getting on my nerves.

 

[blue]

I apologize if I offended Blue, but I don't think I did based on his reply. I understand what he uses his guns for now. One of the things I haven't liked about these latest threads was Blue going after some of the posters who are young people and may not know any better. Confrontational replies, questions that will have no right answer, etc. which seemed to be instigating any kind of response that could be jumped on by the other thread participants.

Taken aback a little but not offended. Thank you for clearing up your critisism of me, I will think on it.

Im used to dealing with people who deal with backhanded compliments and arguments in my own family, sometimes it is a good tactic to get the real convictions and beliefs out of a person.

With the exception of my SKS I buy firearms based on reliabilty, cost, and the size of the magazines.

Not penis envy, Im too lazy to change magazines when I could be shooting. A 30 round mag could be handy if you suprise a bear.

 

[DoggieDog]

This MR debate has been talked to death. From reading the past threads, MR has more than expressed his believes & idealisms on dog training ! I personally do not agree with MR training methods and even wonder about MR credentials. In all honesty, anyone could tell someone their a trainer especially in a forum like Chaz and someone would believe it. For everyone that agrees or disagrees with MR lets just say we all agree to disagree.

 

[heartdogs]

All I have to say is that at least on this forum, it seems that people are free to express their opinions. Trust me, even if it gets dicey sometimes, freedom of speech is precious. It's the way we all learn. My advice is to put on your hardhats and participate, and not get too easily swayed or too easily offended.
Forums that try to restrict open discourse, either through moderation, or reticence, often find themselves only discussing the latest designer doggie clothes, and sharing photos, but not bandying about the topics that really impact dogs and dog owners. I think it's wise to develop a thick skin and never stop learning. JMHO as a "refugee" from other places, and happy to be here.
I want to be able to say that a skunk stinks and not have to simply hold my nose and ignore him at the garden party. :lol-sign:

 

[JTP]

Something that really bothers me about this forum is that the some of the people who seem to spend the most time degrading the the various threads with nasty remarks, slander, and just sheer hostilities are the moderators, and cannot even be put on and ignore list.
So those few people force the decay of the thread by using their authority inappropriately.

A moderator needs to be a bit more of a leader, than a mob particpant.
As much as a moderator may dislike something, sometimes they just need to hold their nose, and do their job.

With the internet we all tend to be bit of a keyoard warrior, but perhaps backing up a little and allowing a bit more of an open discussion would make the list more educational, and interesting.

I see some neat potential resources of knowledge on this forum, but the viciousness limits the potential sharing of that knowledge.

Even spirited debate can share knowledge, and the sharing of passions is very interesting, but illogical, hostile, take no quarter attacking just serves no purpose. except to create a hosile enviroment for both sides of a debate.

The " any dog questions" thread could prove interesting, and insightful, if some of the people posting would quit posting insults, and slander, and either ask questions that are pertinent, or monitor peacefully.
The guy had to go to work, and does need to sleep, he also probably has other obligations that would keep him away from te keyboard.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

The dog questions forum was a complete JOKE. The guy made yet another username so he could come on here and pretend to be someone that wanted to use him and his techniques. An extremely shady action by an extremely shady human being. Personally I don't feel bad now for one thing I said to the guy.

 

[Doberluv]

Ditto Saved.

Hey JTP! Since you are so bothered by this forum, I've got an idea for you! You are more than welcome to run along and find yourself a forum more to your liking. Moderators are members with opinions and voices too. We do what we do and don't need instructions from you.

We're not likely to change the way we do things here to conform to you. 98% of us are perfectly content with the way this forum is. Stay or go. But as a new member, blasting onto center stage throwing insults isn't going to help your cause. We were one big happy family here at Chaz until your little weenie cult leader and his followers came here to disrupt things....not because of different "methods," but because of slime.

You don't know what slander is. Everything that was said was opinions based of what's his name's OWN WORDS. That is not slander.

So, a little advice to you: Change your tone, join in with the discussions and be a little humble until you've been here as long as some of us have. Don't come stomping into "our" house with your muddy shoes, telling us how we should run things.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I for one am quite happy with the way things are handled around here now.....and before that idiot Richling, waltzed his way in here (with 3 differnent usernames).

And I agree, mods should still be able to say what is on their mind and discuss things with us. If they didn't care to say anything or just sit back and watch topics what would be the point in them being here.

 

[JTP]

Thanks for proving each and every point I made.