I'm both glad and sad

[jacensolo]

Before I got Jack 3 years ago I was reading up on the best way to train a dog. Mind you I was only 12. I read that positive reinforcement and clicker training was the best method. I didn't know to much about dogs then, besides the fact that I liked them. I looked up the type of breed my mom said the person at her work had, which just had puppies. It was a Jack Russell Terrier. I read that Jack Russell's were stubborn and hard to train. That didn't sound like the type of dog I wanted. When I told my mom she said I either got one of these dogs or I didn't get a dog at all (stupid logic I think).

So I decided I wanted a girl since they are usually more calm. When we got to the place we decided to meet I found out they only had one left. They said it was a girl. On the ride home I found out otherwise (they must have been really dumb). I was kind of upset but at least I had a dog.

Later I started making a bond with Jack that I just can't imagine having with a female dog. I started using clicker training and taught him to sit and laydown really fast. But for some reason, and I don't remember why, I stopped using the clicker and treats. It might have been because I thought my praise would work the same way and I didn't like carrying around treats. While this method did work, it worked slowly. It took much longer to teach him something but I thought "It's because the tricks are harder". Slowly he grew less and less eager to do the tricks he learned with treats and only did them if he had too or had nothing else to do. I thought of this as "being stubborn" which I still think has a bit to do with it, but it isn't the whole picture.

After I taught him fetch with a ball it seemed he would only come if I had another ball, and even then sometimes he would "decide to ignore me" This ended up to be a game of "I'll fetch for a bit, but after that you will have to come and take the ball away from me". I was lucky that didn't end up being a game of keep away.

Fast forward to today and I decided to see what would happen if I brought pieces of hot dog out with me. Oh boy! was he ready to bring the ball back to me then. I extended how many balls had to be thrown to two times to get the reward and he still did it every single time. I was very pleased... except for a couple things.

Does this mean every time I want him to do something I want I have to bring a bag of cut up hot dogs? Also when I was playing with him he was more focused on the piece of hot dog in my hand and not on me. Is this ok? He still obeyed every word I said but his eyes stayed focused on the hot dog.

Another thing, he did this without the clicker but I was wondering if I should go buy another clicker. I'm not so sure if it sped things up when training, but it might be handy if I'm teaching him something and the situation is he can't get the treat as soon as he does it. Should I start using one again?

 

[Doberluv]

It sounds like you've done a lot with Jack and kudos to you. When you find that your dog seems to be dependent on whether you have treats or not and only seems to do the trick if you have treats, you need to convince him that when you don't have the treats in your hand, THAT'S actually when he WILL get a treat. When he looks at your hand for the treat, that is not going to be what gets him the treat. (because you're not going to give him a treat when he looks at your hand) Do you want him to look at your face so you can always get his attention on you? When he happens to look at your face, say his name and click and treat....lots of times. Watch for it, catch it quickly. He'll learn that when you say his name (or "watch me") or whatever cue you want, he gets a treat.

He is not stubborn. He's probably very smart. He is learning exactly the way he should learn, exactly the way learning behavior always works. If you were aware of what was happening, you would see that to him, it looks as though this is what you want him to do. You are, in essence rewarding him for something and he is repeating that behavior. It is the fact that you do not recognize that you are indeed rewarding or reinforcing behavior which you don't want.

These behaviors have been learned by reinforcement. He got the treat enough times when you had it in your hand....when he looked at your hand. So he learned that looking at your hand gets him the treat. He learned that by bringing the ball, that gets him the treat but only when you have treats, right?

So, now you need to show him that he gets treats when you DON'T have the treats on you or in your hand all the time, that by looking at your hand doesn't mean he'll get a treat.

So, lower your criteria for bringing the ball. Do this in the house. Just throw the ball a very short distance so your Mom doesn't get upset. Make sure it's allowed in the house. Or....do it outside but still....a very short distance at first. Make it easy for him. Before you even take him out, go out there and find a place to put a handful of treats....up on a table or tree branch which you will stand fairly near to so you can get the treats in a hurry. Use your clicker. Remind him what it is again if it's been a long time since you used it. (c/t, c/t, c/t)

Then wash your hands and take him out. Start out with the skill he is most likely to succeed at, something easy, something you'll have no trouble getting him to do. When he does it, click, go grab a treat from the tree branch. (be quick) You can even put treats in various places all over the yard. Practice in different locations. Teach him that there's no tellin' where the treats are coming from but that he has to do a certain thing to get the treat. The only way he'll get this is by mixing things up a little. Then skip a time or two (switch it around) with the treat as long as it's a behavior he knows well. Switch the treats too. You can start out with a less tasty treat, but still a good one. If he starts to lag, go to the place where you've stashed the tastier ones. Of course, he's going to smell all these things up on tables or tree brances (LOL). You can't really fool the dog, but still.....don't reinforce behavior you don't want. If he's staring at the table top, prove to him, that is NOT where the treat is going to come from. Reinforce the behavior you want. That's really what it all boils down to. I know, I know.... ("Now ya tell me..after making me read your dreadfully long post."):lol-sign:

 

[krisykris]

Dober-- great post.. I needed to read that

 

[jacensolo]

He's still going to smell the treats though, isn't he? I think if I have him osmehow look at my face then I can click and treat. That would work right? Eventually he will get it?

But since he will always smell the treats he will know when they are there and when they are not there. How will I get him to do it when they're not there? Should I just increase the number of times it take until he gets a treat until it's only every other session? It's not fetch I don't want to have to give him treats, it's important things like off and recall. When I play fetch I can always have treats on me. But if he's somewhere where I didn't expect him to be I might not have a treat on me.

I've been reading and it looks like the "slot machine" method is a very good idea. When the dog understands the behavior you can sometimes give him a treat, and other times not.

 

[adojrts]

Jacensolo
Doberluv's advice is bang on imo. Do you have a good Clicker Training book?
also there are several excellent sites on clicker training, one is clicker solutions.
Once you fully understand all the rules of clicker training, you'll find it much easier and so will your dog.
BTW, I totally agree with Doberluv, although Jrts have been labelled as subborn, most of the time they are just to smart, which makes them a challenge to train. But oh man is it worth in the end, they can excel and quickly (if you don't have unrealistic expectations!!) with what you are training them to do.
and one book that I think every jrt owner should have is Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.
Good luck
Lynn

 

[Doberluv]

I've been reading u and it looks like the "slot machine" method is a very good idea. When the dog understands the behavior you can sometimes give him a treat, and other times not.

Correct. Gambling casinos know this. They know about learning behavior and schedules of reinforcment and how to get your money. LOL. It's how all mammals operate. Yes, your dog can smell the treats. My Doberman can smell the treats in my pocket but he doesn't get one necessarily every time he does something...not if it's a well learned behavior. So he knows that just because I have treats means diddly squat. He still gives me the correct resonse because there's always a chance that he will get a treat...no tellin' when or for what or how many times he has to perform something or which something. I often do not remember to take any treats with me when we go on our hikes or walks. (that's when I do most of my training) It doesn't matter. If I forget to take treats, I work on things he has already learned pretty well and just use praise that time. It still doesn't matter. He has gotten into the habit of compliance because it has always been associated with great things in the past. There has been a sufficient history of reinforcement. So, the behavior sticks for a long time. Now, at some point, the behavior would start to flag or begin to regress. That's when I bring out the treats again and use a variable reward schedule...freshen things up.

Rewards are delivered on a continuous, variable, or fixed ratio of reward to behavior. A continuous schedule means that each time the dog is cued to sit and sits, he is rewarded. A variable schedule means that the dog’s reward for sitting varies from one instance to the next (this is not a totally random delivery of reinforcement because there will be a certain average number of sits required, much like a slot machine works on an average number of pay outs). A fixed schedule means that for instance, the dog is rewarded for every third sit. All of these effect how well, quickly and how often your dog will respond to your command.

It is important to remember too, that cues/commands do not drive behavior. Reinforcement drives behavior. Someone can tell you to put the money in the slot machine. You know what those words (the cue) mean. However, if there was no chance of earning a reinforcment (money) you would not likely put money into the machine very many times. But you don't need a payoff every time because you know already that there is a chance. If you get paid after a certain number of tries, but before you give up, that strengthens your behavior. You're more likely to repeat what you just did....put money in several times.

 

[Doberluv]

Adojrts, I missed your post when I last posted. Thank you. Those are excellent ideas for reading. And Jacensolo, I think it's just great that you are taking such an interest in learning more about training and learning to understand dogs and how they operate.

 

[Herschel]

I agree with Doberluv completely. Start with a fixed ratio and treat for every desired behavior to quickly teach the behavior, then switch to a variable schedule to entrain it (and to slow its decay).

 

[jacensolo]

I just started reading (and I mean just started) this book and so far it's pretty good. It has some good ideas.

I'm going to read it some more and start learning come again. But I'm not going to say come, I need to think of a word that only I will know so it doesn't get misused by other people. That way he won't associate come with n aything negative. I think I'm finally understanding this. After we get some basics down again I'm going to teach him to jump through a hoop