I'm at the end of rope, and in tears. (Long, but please read if you have time)

[sammgirl]

I just want to say to the OP- we're going through that right now with Abby. She has horrible separation anxiety. When we're getting ready to leave, she starts panting, then her eyes glaze over, then when we're outside the house she howls. She then pants barks and howls all day until a human is back inside the house with her.

We tried EVERYTHING. We don't make a big deal when we leave, she's on doggy prozac, and we had some kind of hormone plug in for dogs- kind of like Glade plug ins, but it releases some type of hormone that's supposed to calm dogs down.

Well, now we have the puppy who is barkey anyway, and the last thing we need is to have two barkey dogs while we are gone for the day at work.

So, now we've moved on to a bark collar for Abby b/c despite all of our efforts Abby still barks and howls all day while she's alone. The puppy can self soothe, but Abby cannot and riles her up with her incessant barking.

And yeah, we feel really bad about it.

Next on the list is debarking if the collar seems to take too much of an emotional toll on Abby. It's better for her IMHO to have one surgery that removes the voice box then have to be shocked multiple times a day because she wants to bark.

And just like your beagle, it's anxiety barking. She barks to relieve stress and because she's afraid of the noises she hears outside.

Good luck. I hope maybe some of the things we've tried will work better for you then us.

*sigh*

Sometimes I feel like Abby should just be rehomed to an old couple who lead a quiet retired life and are home all the time. Then, she wouldn't have to be in a crate b/c she has separation anxiety when left alone and destroys things in the house... then if she wasn't in a crate alone during the day maybe she wouldn't bark all the live long day and need a bark collar to begin with...

I think with some dogs you just have to do the best you can. As other posters have said, better a bark collar then on the street.

 

[sammgirl]

I also wanted to add that mixed breed dogs can be just as crazy as the pure bred ones LOL

If I knew who was responsible for Abby's litter I'd def. give them a piece of my mind!

 

[lizzybeth727]

IWe tried EVERYTHING.

LOL, read my above comment about this statement.

Have you tried a behaviorist? Which books have you read regarding separation anxiety?

IMO, if it's TRUE separation anxiety (SA is often misdiagnosed!) a bark collar is only going to make it worse, and debarking will not solve the SA problem either.

 

[sammgirl]

I understand your concern, but Abby is just not wired right. She is like StillandSilent's Argon. She's nervous every minute of every day except for when she is asleep.

We actually tried a behaviorist a few months ago, but Abby has alot of problems and we ran out of money to take care of them. We were working on her odd fear of manhole covers and strange surfaces so that we could walk her more, but after 2 months we never did get anywhere with it.


The behaviorist wanted more money to continue and we just couldn't do it financially at that time. I wish she was better with strange dogs so that we could put her in doggy day care, but she's not so we can't.

Maybe I could try to convince the BF to try a behaviorist again for the separation anxiety, but I think he's kind of lost faith in them just because of this failed experience. Ah well, it won't hurt to encourage him anyway.

She is his dog, and I don't make any decisions about Abby in our house. I would really like it if Abby could be helped.

Maybe she would be better off if she lived with an animal behaviorist or someone who had a bit more disposable income. But, the BF won't rehome her and to be honest maybe that's for the best.

At least she has a roof over her head, plenty of food to eat, people who love her and care about her and a puppy friend who is teaching her how to play. Maybe that's too much like looking on the bright side of things, but IMHO Abby is pretty lucky.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I understand your concern, but Abby is just not wired right. She's nervous every minute of every day except for when she is asleep.

If she's really that nervous, I personally wonder about her quality of life. Plus, again, a bark collar is only going to make her nervousness worse. Perhaps now's the time for meds.

 

[sammgirl]

Yeah, she's already on doggy prozac.

She's not quite as nervous on it as she used to be. We did a double whammy and tried the prozac with the behaviorist. If we could have kept up with that, I bet we probably would have seen some type of improvement surely by now.

I don't think Abby needs to be put down. I think that Abby has things in life that she very much enjoys- like basking in the sun, playing fetch, and getting loves from her people.

If she had nothing in life that was good to her, I can see it. But, that's very far from the case.

We're just doing what we can for her to improve her life, but sometimes as a dog owner you have to come to the realization that you're doing all you can and therefore you are giving this dog the best possible life for it and maybe sometimes you can't fix everything.

Abby deserves a home and she deserves love and she's lucky enough to have found a home that has no children to disrupt her and two people who actively do the best they can by her.

Believe it or not, we do research different ways to help her. The BF recently started researching T-Touch, and that actually seems to work for her, if only for a couple of hours. But hey, that's start.

Maybe we just haven't found what clicks for Abby, you know? We'll keep trying for her.

 

[4dogs3cats]

I will look into melatonin as well, thanks.

Kody does have times where he calms down.

But yeah, when I go to leave, it depends. If its for work, hes used to that and hes fine.

If I have been home for a short time and then leaving again, he goes nuts. Bites my hand, barks, bolts through the door, scratches when the door is closed.

I kind of wonder if this is more his OCD than SA. When I throw off his schedule, he has a meltdown.

Today his issues were when me and my dad were weedwacking the front yard. So he could see me but not get to me.

I just dont know. Its exhausted me. Im gonna look into the herbal supps. I took the collar off, I just couldnt stand to see him hurting himself. And I just pulled up at my parents, and I hear him in my backyard. If I lock the doggy door, he would pull everything out of my cabinets, so I baby proofed them. maybe I should lock him inside with music on.

 

[4dogs3cats]

Yeah, she's already on doggy prozac.

She's not quite as nervous on it as she used to be. We did a double whammy and tried the prozac with the behaviorist. If we could have kept up with that, I bet we probably would have seen some type of improvement surely by now.

I don't think Abby needs to be put down. I think that Abby has things in life that she very much enjoys- like basking in the sun, playing fetch, and getting loves from her people.

If she had nothing in life that was good to her, I can see it. But, that's very far from the case.

We're just doing what we can for her to improve her life, but sometimes as a dog owner you have to come to the realization that you're doing all you can and therefore you are giving this dog the best possible life for it and maybe sometimes you can't fix everything.

Abby deserves a home and she deserves love and she's lucky enough to have found a home that has no children to disrupt her and two people who actively do the best they can by her.

Maybe we just haven't found what clicks for Abby, you know? We'll keep trying for her.

Sometimes, thats all we can do.

 

[stardogs]

There are other anxiety meds than prozac - each do has individual needs that make make one choice better than another.

Re: behaviorists: did the person just call themselves a behaviorist? Did they have any credentials (CPDT, CDBC)? Were they a ***vet*** behaviorist?

Technically anyone can call themselves a behaviorist, but it's term that really refers to a vet or someone with a similar advanced degree (PhD, sometimes a MS with additional eductaion in the field). I highly suggest vet behaviorists if you're considering meds as they are up to date on all the latest developments there.

 

[MericoX]

The poodle pups are both on SA meds (Amitriptyline). When crated (and I'm not with them) they will constantly bark and howl if I'm not in the same room with them. I tried ignoring them, letting them have extra extra exercise time, but nothing worked. DP would work until they'd wake up again and start up.

Now there is a little grumbling when I leave, but they are pretty much quiet throughout the day. Right now we're mostly home-bound so they're getting a little cabin fever... but not all that bad.

I would also recommend Control Unleashed for you. It has worked wonders with my schnauzers with focusing on me and leaving the rest of the world be.

 

[Doberluv]

So before you leave, you put the shock collar on him? The shock collar, whether he's barking and getting shocked or not has become the cue that you're about to leave and he's about to get super stressed. So, not only is the shock collar painful and scary for what it does, it is also a predictor of that scary, insecure alone time. I would think this has doubled his anxiety and nervousness. I'd seriously throw that in the garbage. I'd sooner get the anti-bark surgery than shock him. The surgery isn't going to fix whatever is the underlying problem, but it isn't going to make him sad about getting a more muffled bark or make him wish he had his old bark back. That's a human thing.

Have you tried any conditioning exercises....say, over a few weeks time? It is difficult if you can't take off a few weeks from work and be home. But there are methods to assist or improve the probability of his learning to tolerate alone time. Finding a cue, like the turning on of music which indicates a tolerable absense is about to take place is one part of a particular method. Then you turn off the music when you must leave for longer periods. You gradually increase the seconds that you're away to longer and longer durations....very gradually. You utilize music, not as a soothing thing, but as a cue. The way most people use music or the TV, is with the intention of soothing the anxious dog when he's left alone. But it can have the opposite effect. It comes to be a cue that anxiety and panic is about to begin. It's much better to use it as a representation of tolerable absenses. Anyhow, this is all explained in Culture Clash. There are other good books too. Have you read any of those mentioned? You may be able to get some improvement with some real working on specific exercises plus medication of some sort which will calm the dog down enough to be able to process the lessons he's having. I do not reject the idea of some kind of anti-anxiety medication for such an extreme case. It doesn't mean he'll always have to be on it. That, in conjunction with alone training may bring on some improvement. The two work together. I hope things will get better for him.

For the barking at everything under the sun, the shock collar again becomes associated with those things and makes them into even worse things, causing more anxiety. It's a vicious cycle. Densensatizing, clicker training, distance, set-up situations, practice at lower levels of the triggers etc...have you tried something there? Keep the dog away from the window where the triggers are seen and upsetting the dog. Close the blinds? Try preventing close proximatey to the scary things. It sounds like really bad instability and I'm so sorry you guys have such a problem. I don't know what I'd do really. It must be a ton of work to get any improvement. I really feel for you and hope something will work.

 

[4dogs3cats]

So before you leave, you put the shock collar on him? The shock collar, whether he's barking and getting shocked or not has become the cue that you're about to leave and he's about to get super stressed. So, not only is the shock collar painful and scary for what it does, it is also a predictor of that scary, insecure alone time. I would think this has doubled his anxiety and nervousness. I'd seriously throw that in the garbage. I'd sooner get the anti-bark surgery than shock him. The surgery isn't going to fix whatever is the underlying problem, but it isn't going to make him sad about getting a more muffled bark or make him wish he had his old bark back. That's a human thing.

Have you tried any conditioning exercises....say, over a few weeks time? It is difficult if you can't take off a few weeks from work and be home. But there are methods to assist or improve the probability of his learning to tolerate alone time. Finding a cue, like the turning on of music which indicates a tolerable absense is about to take place is one part of a particular method. Then you turn off the music when you must leave for longer periods. You gradually increase the seconds that you're away to longer and longer durations....very gradually. You utilize music, not as a soothing thing, but as a cue. The way most people use music or the TV, is with the intention of soothing the anxious dog when he's left alone. But it can have the opposite effect. It comes to be a cue that anxiety and panic is about to begin. It's much better to use it as a representation of tolerable absenses. Anyhow, this is all explained in Culture Clash. There are other good books too. Have you read any of those mentioned? You may be able to get some improvement with some real working on specific exercises plus medication of some sort which will calm the dog down enough to be able to process the lessons he's having. I do not reject the idea of some kind of anti-anxiety medication for such an extreme case. It doesn't mean he'll always have to be on it. That, in conjunction with alone training may bring on some improvement. The two work together. I hope things will get better for him.

For the barking at everything under the sun, the shock collar again becomes associated with those things and makes them into even worse things, causing more anxiety. It's a vicious cycle. Densensatizing, clicker training, distance, set-up situations, practice at lower levels of the triggers etc...have you tried something there? Keep the dog away from the window where the triggers are seen and upsetting the dog. Close the blinds? Try preventing close proximatey to the scary things. It sounds like really bad instability and I'm so sorry you guys have such a problem. I don't know what I'd do really. It must be a ton of work to get any improvement. I really feel for you and hope something will work.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply so in depth for me!

I don't really want the collar on him when I'm not home, because I am at work for 11 hours a day, and thats not safe/fair to him. I only have the collar on when I am supervising, and I can TRY to calm him down before he gets into a barking frenzy.

I think the collar is making things worse though. He is still anxious, just nervously and quietly so with the collar on. He appears depressed and scared. I can't do that to him. On my break today at work I'm gonna call some vets and get estimates for bloodwork. I need to get this ball rolling.

Thanks, guys. I am starting to feel like even though I'm not able to help him at the moment, that it's not my fault and he needs more than what I'm doing. So he will be seeing a vet asap.

 

[4dogs3cats]

ETA- I just called a couple vets in the area, and the one a half mile from my house that I used to work at seems to be the best.

The office visit is $48 which is a lot, but the bloodwork is $64 for liver and kidney. A full panel can go up to $175, but hopefully the vet doesn't see a need to do a full panel.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Criosphynx]

Jen, I have used rescue remedy. You have to buy it online, and its not cheap. I don't recommend it.

its 27% ALCOHOL. It wont fix anxiety, it will just knock him out. That is, if it works. I found that it only "worked" for about 4 days.

I used it on Critter with very minimal difference, she is now on prozac and the problems are gone.

Honestly, if this were MY dog, I'd forget the 3 hours exercise and start training him.

ALOT. make a list of ten tricks/behaviors and work dilligently towards them.

I have a SA dog (not medicated) and exercise will not do it with her. If she gets her daily training she is 100000 times better than if she got only exercise. Anxiety is a racing mind, not a racing body. You want to wear out his little brain.


also, if hes reacting, don't ask anything of him (for now) than to look at the trigger and then click/treat...hundreds or thousands of times. You want to change his perceptions, not make him more anxious