ILP or Canine Partners?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by crazedACD, Jul 6, 2012.

  1. momto8

    momto8 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Courtney is ILP/PAL registered to lure course and do junior showmanship. Was very simple!
     
  2. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    For the same reason that to this day the host clubs for Obedience, Rally, and Agility trials can decide the dirty mudbloods can't play at their particular event, no questions asked. Because people had great big tantrums over allowing the mix breeds to to play at all. Hence the original "separate but equal plan" to allowed the mudbloods to compete in their own classes (ie. we'd all be at an agility trial, running the same courses, but the mixes would be competing in a separate class against each other and working to earn separate titles...NAM (Novice Agility-Mixed) for instance). The reaction that little plan unleashed caused them to go back prior to implementation and decide to let the little mongrels play with the big kids...when the host clubs feel like including them.

    ...And yes this is a pet peeve topic for me lol
     
  3. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1 dog, 1 guinea pig, 1 hamster, 1 American toad, 1
    Location:
    Illinois
    Haha, you and me both. I actually got an email from the AKC way back when asking me why I hadn't completed Mackenzy's registration, and I told them I wasn't ok with "separate but equal". A few months later, it seemed I wasn't the only way with that sentiment. ;)

    ETA: Funny thing is that the people who do agility, rally, and OB? They're all for mixed breeds in competition. Most don't even particularly support the altered rule. IME it was people who've never stepped outside the breed ring that were pissed off it. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Oh and I don't know if this was part of the intention or not, but barring mix breeds from tracking also prevents them from earning any of the companion versatility titles, which require titling to various levels in Obedience, Agility, and Tracking IIRC
     
  5. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,270
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    several
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Home Page:
    I think that with herding, there is the safety of the livestock to take into consideration. Not all breeds are suitable for herding and some are actually fairly likely to try to kill the livestock if they get overstimulated. Not to say herding breeds don't sometimes injure or even kill livestock but the risk increases if you start allowing whatever breed to give it a go. IMO it makes sense for herding, "real" coursing and field trials to not be open to mixed breeds because they aren't open to all purebreds. The tracking is a the odd one out for that though. It could in part be because there are so many fewer tracking trials and you can do so few dogs per day?

    Not here. The obedience people here did not open trials to mixed breeds for probably a year or so after they were eligible. There was a big deal about who would be the first club in this part of Ohio to start and for awhile it seemed like no club wanted to be the first. "We'll wait until so and so offers it then we will". These were training clubs, not affiliated with breed clubs. And even still, not all of the trials are open to mixed breeds. We had a big 5 day show a couple months ago and some days were open to mixes and some weren't. I was also told by a Rally judge at our club last month that some Obedience/Rally judges still will not judge for clubs who allow mixed breeds to participate.
     
  6. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    14,854
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Twin Citay!
    Are vision impaired dogs allowed to compete in AKC?
    I have a friend with a deaf border collie who can't compete in AKC due to rules against deaf dogs competing.
     
  7. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,854
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Environmental Science
    Location:
    Vermont
    Well isn't that charming.

    I don't pay an enormous amount of attention to AKC beyond our two local trials (both of whom offer mix breeds), but before I got Gusto I was thinking about putting MACH on Meg. Every trial I looked at in the North East was open to mixed breeds at that point.

    We are lucky in our area that I could find 2 - 4 trials a month most of the year in any venue within what I consider a reasonable driving distance (3 hours or under). If you want to play USDAA, CPE, AKC, or NADAC/ASCA - it is your choice. USDAA will always get the majority of my trial funds!
     
  8. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    At least in the two states I've lived in while having competition dogs, Agility is very inclusive. Nearly all of the the all-breed trials allow mixes. There are still a few holdouts, usually breed clubs that are sponsoring an agility trial, but even those are rare. And I've never encountered an attitude issue at an AKC agility trial I've attended.

    Obedience is a whole 'nother ball game. Maybe 50% of the all-breed trials in obedience allow mudbloods. And that's being generous...the last time I actually did a census (~6 months ago) it was more like 30%. Kim & Webby did UKC obedience before AKC allowed mixes at all anyway. Mira does AKC obedience since that's what her breed club recognizes but we've only entered trials that allow mix breeds even though she's not one. Not giving my entry money to clubs with their panties in a twist.

    I wish we had USDAA here but there are only 2 trials a year within 3 hours. Outside of that we'd have to travel at least 6 hours each way...which just isn't feasible for us.
     
  9. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,270
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    several
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Home Page:
    In this area, the agility people seemed to be like "ok whatever" about mixes in AKC and most of the agility trials started allowing mixes maybe not right away but pretty quickly.

    In some ways I do see the objection from the purebred dog community, in that AKC is supposed to be for and about purebred dogs. There's not many supporters left of purebred dogs really. However, I'm not sure allowing mixes really makes a big difference one way or another. And in reality, people have been competing with mixes in AKC since the ILP program was started. Now it's just done more honestly ;)
     
  10. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1 dog, 1 guinea pig, 1 hamster, 1 American toad, 1
    Location:
    Illinois
    Yeah, that's why tracking seems to stick out like a sore thumb to me also, as opposed to breed specific activities. It would get really hairy with mixed breeds. If I've got a Aussie/Dobe mix, let's say, does it get to herd because it's part Aussie or is it not allowed because Dobes are not a herding breed? Etc etc. But yeah tracking is all bred sooo...



    Ouch, I'm glad I'm not there! :eek: Everybody here has been really supportive, thankfully. I've gotten a lot of, "Oh... so your dog is mix? How does that work, exactly?" but nothing negative thus far.
     
  11. elegy

    elegy overdogged

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Messages:
    7,720
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    There was a lot of fussing among agility people in areas with trials that fill in the first two seconds about opening it up to mixed breeds and how that would increase entries even more and it would be even harder to get into trials and blah blah blah. "There are plenty of other venues for those dogs."

    To be honest, I'm not sure if our club allows mixed breed entries in Obedience. I know the place I usually show at (one ring, very quiet) does.
     
  12. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,854
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Environmental Science
    Location:
    Vermont
    The couple of trials I've had Meg at, people reacted to seeing her the same way I react to seeing a deer in the field. "Ooh, look! A mixed-breed! Should we take a picture? Don't scare it!".

    Okay, maybe not that bad :p But you could tell it was a bit of a novelty to them. Kind of cracked me up. People were generally very friendly, except for the people who I don't think are friendly to anyone.
     
  13. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah I heard that too and I'm in one of those areas but really I'm not sure the 2-4 mix breeds at most of the trials I've been to really exasperate the situation all that much. But that is one of the rallying cries of the "anti-" ground, especially in tracking.

    Both my clubs (and both my previous clubs) allowed mix breeds to compete in any event they hosted that had the possibility. One of my club's AKC rep was actually one of those people lobbing against inclusion of mix breeds in any AKC event in any way (this was before I was a member) but once AKC decided to allow it they sucked it up and permitted them at all their events...agility, obedience, and rally. And they have some of the bigger trials in our area which do fill.

    The giving-equal-opportunity-to-others-could-mean-less-for-ME argument does not impress me one bit.
     
  14. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,270
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    several
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Home Page:
    Yeah and even at that, who's job is to ensure the mixes or non-registered breeds actually are what people say they are. So someone says their dog is an Aussie/Dobe and that's what the shelter said it was but then the dog shows up and it appears to be a APBT. Sort of opens the Canine Partners program up to being a lot more trouble than it's worth for the people putting on trials. Or having to create a whole new "Mixed Breed ID" committee that would evaluate mixes by pictures to determine if they appear to be herding breeds or sporting breeds or sighthound crosses.

    I'm not that people have been unwelcoming at the trials. No one seemed to care at the few I have been too that there are mixes competing. It's the politics more so than the feelings of the competitors. Like our training club didn't object to allowing mixed breeds to compete at their trials in itself. But they didn't want to create problems with other local clubs or judges who were saying they wouldn't come to clubs that allowed mixes. And likely, the other clubs felt the same way. Like I said, there was this big "well, we will allow mixes but not until someone else does" thing going on. Pretty ridiculous considering the dwindling entries in AKC obedience. You'd think clubs putting on obedience trials would welcome having so many more potential competitors. Instead, they got all "well people will talk....".

    Agility people didn't care because agility has never been limited to only purebreds, except in AKC. AKC was never the only game in town for agility either. USDAA and I believe what eventually became UKC agility was already well established before AKC recognized just how big agility could become. AKC has always been the oddball in agility in terms of not accepting mixed breeds (well...not officially anyway. Like I said some of those ILPs...). Most agility people compete in multiple venues and were used to competing against mixed breeds. Or they have friends who have/compete with mixed breeds in other venues. So while agility certainly didn't need the entry boost of allowing even more dogs to compete, the agility people embraced it anyway. And obedience people continued to complain that their trials aren't making money and interest in the sport is quickly fading while turning away a large, new group of potential participants.

    Gotta love how stupid politics are involved in everything.
     
  15. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,048
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Too Many
    Location:
    West Missouri
    The problem here is that there aren't many non-AKC trials unless I want to be traveling out of New England. Even APDT Rally, there are a few, but generally the same two or three training centers..one in NH, another a few hours away in MA. And Maine. Makes for a very long day if I don't get a hotel room. The Mixed Breed club doesn't even have an events page linked anymore. There are a few things I don't care for regarding the AKC, and would rather not support it, but there are few other options without it being a pain for me.

    Blind dogs aren't, but Romeo isn't to that point in normal lighting. When he starts showing signs of difficulty we will stop.
     

Share This Page