If it shouldn't be named an alpha roll ... what should it be called?

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by pitbullpony, Feb 22, 2010.

  1. pitbullpony

    pitbullpony BSL Can Be Beaten

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    Threw it in this section; since most people use the concept of an "alpha roll" in the process of training -- silly humans that's why you have thumbs.

    However when your dog "alpha rolls" another dog; what would you call it.

    Just curious, Kim is an artiste at this point; she's very smooth, Dora isn't quite so subtle.
     
  2. wcladymacbeth

    wcladymacbeth New Member

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    wrestling? :) I dunno. My dogs don't do that. They wrestle and sometimes roll onto their backs while they play but it's not anyone rolling the other one over. do some dogs do that when they play?
     
  3. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    Most of the time, id call it playing or wrestling.

    but if it becomes something unfriendly/holding the other dog down, that is being a bully! and I correct that kind of thing, even though hes 5 pounds lol a bullys a bully
     
  4. TheGoldenRetriever

    TheGoldenRetriever New Member

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    Playing?

    Mine don't either, never ... good thing too!! One is huge and about 85 lbs. and the other is a little 12 pounder guy.

    The little one tries mightily to play with the big one ... the big one completely ignores it, which in most cases gets the little one to stop. Occasionally it doesn't ... at which times the big guy gets a look on his face that says "Would one of you hoomans kindly get this mosquito offa me?" :D
     
  5. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    yeah, here we call it wrestling as well.

    although one time i brought luce into the petstore and she made eye contact with another dog on the other side of the room and he rolled himself. alpha luce!
     
  6. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    mine do this also... all Armani or Elle has to do is look at Bella and she flips over... its weird... Armani will go over and look at her like "get up I want to play with you, what are you doing on your back?!" :p

    Otherwise they only get rolled over when they are playing and that's nothing serious.

    No one here just rolls anyone over for no reason or tries to hold someone down for more then a second or two in play.
     
  7. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    The term, "alpha roll" refers to the concept of showing the dog who's boss, a forceful, domineering, non-playful, aggressive disciplinary action. From a dog's point of view, it is an attack which threatenes the dog's safety or life, whether a human or another animal does it.

    I would hope that the concept of an alpha roll in the process of training is not used by most people and in fact, hope that education is causing this barbaric and stupid technique to dwindle.

    What you guys are talking about sounds more like you're wrestling or playing, rolling the dog over with a playful demeanor, either the human or another dog is playing with the dog. This is not an alpha roll. It's just a roll. LOL.
     
  8. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    In my house no one gets rolled.. ever. If dekka is annoyed she will grab the flattened (cause they see her coming) dog by the muzzle for a few seconds. BUT the puppies will flip themselves over in front of the adults.
     
  9. pitbullpony

    pitbullpony BSL Can Be Beaten

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    K- so apparently I have an aberration? Kim has done it to numerous dogs that are inappropriately forward towards her; or they do not show the correct obsequious-ness to her; in her mind (I can only guess what is in her mind).

    Latest episode was; neutered male dog - very friendly towards all other dogs on his property, he is big - goldendoodle and is very hairy -- all white. We were out walking in his woods; Kim is un-spayed Central Asian Shepherd; she claims land very quickly; the guardian perspective; so we made a campfire - 4 adults; 2 kids (Kim's) and Wally (male dog) and his owner were approaching the campsite; Kim alerted and when met by the owner; was fine with them joining us. Also at the campfire was an older beagle who Kim leaves alone (the beagle doesn't like other dogs) and an immature Springer; who Kim was attempting to mount and muzzle punch to get a reaction from.

    Wally came over to say hi; no reaction to Kim; he went to see her; put his head above hers; and she reared up with great snarls and lots of teeth (I will not use the word attack; since there was no damage) and put Wally upside down in the snow, he resisted her; until she "won". I stepped in too early and when he got up without her permission; it started all over again. This time I left it for her to decide; it was very interesting. Wally was on his back, tail between his legs, front legs curled; no resistance; pacifying grin. Kim proceeded to get up in stages, one foreleg, then the next; when Wally didn't move until she had removed all her weight, she stepped aside; and "allowed" him to get up and go back to his owner. She proceeded to ignore him from then on; and still does; they can stand near to each other; she is "boss" what she says goes; if she wants to be near the door; he steps back and lets her go first.

    If that's not an alpha roll; what would you call it?

    Dora doesn't use her teeth like Kim; she bodyslams other dogs with the intent of knocking them off their feet; there is a distinct difference in mannerisms between play and "domination"; I know people don't like to believe in that word; but there is really no better way to describe it.

    Curious.
     
  10. Promethean

    Promethean New Member

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    Neither I nor my dogs have ever forcibly pinned another dog. We've had other dog's roll on their backs for us, by their choice.

    The whole notion of another dog forcibly doing that to another is ridiculous. We've seen Millan trying that with dog's that he outweighs by 2-3X and even with 2 grasping hands it is not easy.
     
  11. MPP

    MPP petperson

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    Oh, I DO love Luce! :rofl1: Attitude is all!:hail:
     
  12. Snark

    Snark Mutts to you

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    This is what my dogs do... It was kind of funny to see Patch, a 40 lb beagle/terrier, grab a flattened Emily, a 110 lb. rott/shep, by the muzzle and grumble at her. Emily would stay flattened until Patch stalked off, still grumbling (Patch was a talker).
     
  13. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I don't think it's that people don't believe in the word, "dominance." It's that it is thought that domestic dogs don't operate within a consistent hierarchy. What we see, when we see a pattern in behavior by one dog or another, such as you describe is often a learned behavior, learned by association...history, rather than due to a linear hierarchy operating or one dog seeking a step up the social ladder into a particular rank.

    It sounds like Kim is a bully. A real leader, one who guides others is one who controls resources, not one who throws his or her weight around or behaves in a forcible or aggressive way. This kind of behavior is often the product of insecurity rather than confidence. And what you see might be the weaker dog giving into the bullying simultaneously or just before he thinks he's going to be attacked or knocked into. We can miss signals that dogs give off too, as they can be very subtle. Usually it's the weaker dog appeasing the aggressor in order to deflect further conflict and there are very subtle signals that a lot of people miss. Some dogs ignore other dogs' signals. The other dogs may be giving a calming signal and perhaps Kim is not recognizing and respecting them...and continues on, obliviously with her forceful ways.

    Personally, I wouldn't tolerate a dog body slamming and pinning another dog if it weren't in play. (which I have never seen in all my years) Even if the weaker dog submitted voluntarily first... I wouldn't let that bullying go that far, to the point where the other dog is cowering with it's tail between it's legs and practically peeing himself. I don't let pushy behavior be reinforced because I, as the human do not go for it. I don't believe in letting my dogs call the shots. Smaller matters, small warning growls to communicate and observing if the other one is respecting that, so a situation is resolved easily is one thing. Letting it get to the point of engaging in outright bullying behavior, is another.
     
  14. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    I agree completely.

    I have seen it in one dog...Tyr...and it definitely has a lot of potential for both physical and psychological damage to the dog on the receiving end. And I wouldn't call it dominance at all. I'd call it bullying.
     
  15. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Excellent post, Dober. :)

    It IS difficult to recognize a true leader until you've seen one, because they will be extremely subtle like Dober said. I worked with a dog a few months ago who was a true leader, she was amazing to watch. She was extremely good with all other dogs, because she simply didn't take anything from them. I worked with her for over a year, had her in play groups with other dogs almost every day, and I NEVER saw ANY aggressive act, vocalization, or even posture. She was too good for that. She didn't need to fight to show others she was the boss, she just was the boss. She could get any dog to stop in their tracks with just a glance. It actually took all of us a while to figure out what she was doing, because it was so subtle we usually didn't notice it. She did seem to enjoy other dogs, and would initiate play with them, but it was clear that she was always in charge of the play and would call the shots - they started to play when SHE was ready, and they ended the play when SHE wanted to end it. She was really very awesome to watch.

    ETA: Oh yeah, and she NEVER alpha rolled another dog.... partly, I think, because we didn't allow dogs to lay belly-up like that, but mostly, I think, because she was too cool :cool: to have to do that.
     
  16. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Thanks Lizzy.:)



    He-e-e-l-l-p....I'm being pinned!

    [​IMG]

    I'm stuck...sandwitched between two Doberlegs...pinned..he's gonna eat me... He-e-l-p....

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Tsume'sMom

    Tsume'sMom New Member

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    "Bully-roll" is a fitting name. ;) It is a very confrontational way for a human to deal with a dog, it is also a good way to get bit if you do it to the wrong dog. Dogs forcefully putting eachother down like a human would is an aggressive correction or rude bullying behavior. No matter which it should not be viewed as normal or healthy dog behavior. This kind of physical altercation could get one or both dogs seriously hurt and should not be allowed by the human in charge.

    As for people rolling their dogs, I don't think it should be regaurded as normal training. A down command is the most "submissive" I will ever ask my dog to be to me. Down makes a dog very vulnerable, and many dogs with trust issues or stronger (more "dominate") personalitys will take longer to teach down. If Tsume is being rotten, like say he is barking wildly at the mailman, he doesn't need to be rolled for that. Just a firm down and I'm back in control, and he's looking at me waiting for whatever comes next. (but that may just be a GSD thing, the NEED to do something for thier person)
     
  18. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Morgan is very close to being a true alpha dog and it is very awesome to watch her. She's a little on the soft side, and maybe also because of her size is less capable to be in charge with her mere presence, but she can put a dog in their place without any acts of aggression...and when she can't, her "aggression" is very quick, effective and does no physical damage. Which is why I left it to her to teach both Tyr and Nyx better manners.
     
  19. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    To this day, I have only ONCE seen a true forced roll... and that was when a Rottie rolled Gonzo over, undoubtedly trying to kill him. :( It was in no way an alpha move, it was an unstable, aggressive dog. I watch dogs of all kinds play (and get into scuffles at times) every day at work. Never seen a dog do that. To the "naked eye", it may seem that one dog is rolling the other, when in reality the dog rolls voluntarily. If the dog on top doesn't back off and respect the dog who is submitting, that's when fights happen, as the dog on his back feels very vulnerable. You're lucky that the Doodle didn't try to defend himself! D:

    Fozzie is very alpha-esque. He walks around groups of other dogs quite confidently and he's able to calm down rambunctious dogs with one look or one little grumble. He would never pin another dog, or use excessive force to control another dog. Other dogs never growl at him, never challenge him, and never pick fights with him. I can trust him with pretty much ANY dog, even DA dogs are totally calm around him. Dogs who are pushy and "dominant" are insecure dogs who need to be taught to use calming signals and respect boundaries.
     
  20. pitbullpony

    pitbullpony BSL Can Be Beaten

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    I agree, that with Kim, it is probably bullying behaviour; but it seems ingrained in the Central Asian Shepherd as a breed. There play is very intense and I've been at her breeders and seen them do similar displays. The intent is to win; perhaps it just looks better when it is between 2 of the same breed; who understand each other's drives; as opposed to a somewhat softer dog that doesn't get it? The CAS is a highly defensive breed; however she is uber confident in all situations -- (too much so for a CAS); there is no situation that I have put her in that she wasn't 100% confident with; footing, noise, thunder/lightning, other dogs that do submit to her (she gets a lot of puppy-mouthing from other dogs), parades, livestock, wildlife, decoys; but she is a very domineering dog; both to humans and to other dogs. Perhaps she's just a subtle a**hole -- which would make perfect sense to me.

    Dora is a poo-disturber; she is great with dogs she likes; but is a thuggy-referee with dogs she doesn't; however she is boss to Kim in all situations (unless Kim can outrun her -- which she does routinely just to get Dora's goat. Otherwise Kim allows Dora to be first in everything -- food, walks, doors, seating preferences, me, kids. Which suits me fine.

    Dynamics in the dog world; very interesting. I believe that interactions should be played out as much as possible; naturally -- you can't know your dog until you see everything they bring to the table. I will not interfere unless there is the potential for serious injury; since I never have my dogs in a situation that their behaviour isn't acceptable.
    Wally's owner had no problem with him being rolled (apparently Wally is a bit of an a**hole too).
     

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