I Would Not Risk It !!!!!

[Aussie Red]

Earlier today I was asked on another thread as to where I got my information about RAW diets. When I replied my vet, a comment was made about if my vet was trained by the Science Diet people.
To me the B.A.R.F. or any raw diet is a fad and here is my logic:
The Centers for Desiese Controll has found that every type of meat does contain at least 1 strain of bacteria.
Sahnonella
E-Coli
Campylobacter
Trichinosis
all can cause severe illness and DEATH ! Thourough cooking is the only way to kill it. Freezing does not ! Labratories preserve these bacteria by freezing. Dogs are 100% susceptable to these bacteria as humans.
Toxoplasma is carried by warm blooded animals and can and is transmitted by undercooked or raw meat. Seizure disorders are on the increase in dogs due to Toxoplasmosis.
Salmonellosis on increase directly linked to raw diet causing gastrointestinal upset, weight loss, and anorexia.
Nutritional problems directly linked are
Low Phosphorus
Low Potassium levels
Bad Calcium to Phosphorus ratios
High concentrations of Zinc
Raw bones can and do splinter also cause broken teeth and other problems

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And lastly Dames fed raw diet while pregnant are producing puppies suffering from calcium deficiency because of the calcium to phosphorus ratios. The puppies are weak, in pain, unable to stand or have abnormal gaits.
These are the findings by the
AAHA American animal hospital association
AVA American Veterinary association
International Natural pet care association
Ontario Veterinary college
and many other reputable institutions of animal health.
AGAIN YOUR CHOICE

 

[Aussie Red]

All above mentioned associations agree that a well balanced home made cooked diet is the best.
RAW feeders claim that their dogs coat is shinnier
a little olive oil added to their diet will do the same without the risk
Raw feeders say that it is natural and what they ate before we domesticated dogs.
How many of you have seen a true wild dog ? If you have you will note that their coat is dull, they are malnourished and not living as long as the domestic due to desiese.
I feed home cooked diet as well as a mixture of Innova, Eagle Pack, and Canidae placed in air tight containers in freezer to reduce spoilage and a little raw veggies or fruit for a suplement. Raw fruits and veggies are recommended in small amounts.

 

[Aussie Red]

one more add on: this poor little guy ate a raw bone

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can't imagine seeing one of mine like that

 

[J's crew]

Very interesting. I have always been interested in going to raw but this definetly makes me think. Hmmmm....

My dogs are fed premium food with fresh fruit & veggies added, yogurt, and cooked meat. Their coats are fabulous and are in tip top shape. Maybe I should stick with what is working for me.

 

[Aussie Red]

It is working for you and according to all I have read on this the long term effect out weigh the instant results . Also when dogs are switched to raw they get a case of the runs that raw feeders say is cleanning the system out but infact it may be the onset of one or more of these bacterias

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Get ready for some opcorn: Aussie LOL! I have given some raw meat in the beggining to my ACD and just never felt right about it, personally. Alot of people swear by RAW on this board and are probably going to find the claims and pics you posted bogus And the question of vets not knowing anything about nutrition is probably for the most part true but my vet feeds all holistic foods to there dogs and swears by Innova, California natural, and some of the other great foods on the market. This includes all the vet techs as well who don't buy into the Science diet thing and my vet also does not push it on anyone. My vet also does titers and doesn't over vaccinate either by giving shots every 3 years if need be unless the titer shows otherwise. As far as dogs and the raw feeders thinking that they are feeding a "species appropriate diet" by all means if it is working for you and your dogs go for it! But dogs (wolves) in the wild don't live nearly as long as our "domesticated dogs" do and I also feel as though there systems are built a little tougher against bacteria.........JMO of course To me feeding raw is to new to the dog world and maybe 20 years from now after books and sufficient evidence is presented to the public that it is actually the way to go as far as nutrition for my dog then that is when I will reconsider it again

 

[Shalva]

I have fed a solely raw diet for six years now..... I am very careful what bones I feed my dogs as far as size and length.... marrow bones are always longer than their muzzle.... and I dont feed backs or wings simply because they make me nervous although I do know that many people do.

I also weaned my last litter of puppies onto raw.....and all but one of them have stayed on raw in their new families.

what I always find so interesting is that I don't badmouth kibble.... and I don't badmouth home cooked diets.... but people have no qualms about using scare tactics to rip apart what I with much research choose to feed. Ten years ago feeding raw was a huge fad... I agree.... but at this point in time.... ten years later I would suggest that we have moved out of fad territory. There are organized groups.... list serves... mainstream books that can be purchased at a regular bookstore.... and many many people who arent even feeding a raw diet add meat and veggies to their dogs food.

In our case, we have a dog with IBD and raw food is what keeps him healthy.... and not having bloody stool..... he was the catalyst for our change in diet.....

So do I think your pictures are bogus.... I don't know.... I can't say.... do I think that vets have a clue.... nope not a single one..... the fact is that vets are right with regard to those bacteria in people but dogs are not people and dogs have a very different digestive tract.....
Does my personal vet feed raw.... you betcha..... and ya know what when I first went to him he was against it.... and just recently after seeing my dogs and others started feeding raw to his.

Do I feed raw because my dogs are wolves.... NO thats silly in my mind... my dogs are far removed from wolves.....

Have all my dogs grown normally and have shiny coats.... yep...... would olive oil work with other diets yep you betcha.....

do my dogs get cooked foods as well.... sure.... my dogs get everything ..... from table scraps to canned mackeral to baked beans, sweet potatos and raw meat.....

Do I feel the need to start posts that create hysteria about what you feed your dogs??? and the fact that cooking destroys the good digestive enzymes in meat.... NO

Everyone has to do what they are comfortable with ...... you do what your comfortable with and I do what I am comfortable with and others might think we are all nuts and feed Ole Roy.......

However, whatever decision you choose to make, respect should be given to others who make a different feeding decision......

and that having been said I don't understand the need for or the point of your post.....

S

 

[whatszmatter]

just a few things off the top of my head. Most of those bacT's are found in dogs naturally. In fact almost 40% shed salmonella in their feces regularly no matter what they are fed, cats as well. The amount of dogs dying from food posioning is so low, well let's just say when was the last case you heard of. BTW there were quite a few that died or suffered liver failure from some kibble food (diamond) just last year.

I know more than a few breeders that start their puppies on RAW from the time they are weened and the mothers have been fed nothing but RAW their entire lives. Try telling my vet, or any of the vets we've been to over the past 10 years that my dogs and puppies haven't been or aren't healthy, their jaws drop and usually know to save the RAW is dangerous speech at that point.

I could get into the hundreds of reasons why dogs are in fact set up physiolgically to eat raw food ranging from the start of their digestive tract, saliva components, and teeth to their short intestines and extremely low ph of their stomach contents, but you seem to have made up your mind.

RAW feeding a FAD? not in this household.

 

[vanillasugar]

I don't currently have a dog, but as someone who raw feeds my cats (WITH my vets blessing!) I feel I should respond. I did not chose this diet because it's a fad. I chose this diet because it makes biological sence, and I've directly seen the benefits shown of a raw diet in MANY animals, both dogs and cats.

Dogs are 100% susceptable to these bacteria as humans.

This is simply untrue. They are indeed susceptable to the bacteria, but it would need to be presented in MUCH larger amounts than what is in fresh meat, in levels far beyond what would make a person ill.

Raw bones can and do splinter also cause broken teeth and other problems

The instances of this are very rare. It happens, but dogs have choked and died on kibble as well. ANYTHING you put in your dogs mouth can cause problems. ANYTHING. All dog owners should understand that risk.

And lastly Dames fed raw diet while pregnant are producing puppies suffering from calcium deficiency because of the calcium to phosphorus ratios

This would only occur if the mother were being fed a severely imbalanced diet. Most raw feeders don't go about it willy-nilly. Sure there are some out there who do it wrong, who didn't educate themselves enough, and that is unfortunate. But this is exactly why I've always said that raw feeding isn't for everyone. Some people just don't want to put the effort in, and for the sake of their animals, should never try.

RAW feeders claim that their dogs coat is shinnier
a little olive oil added to their diet will do the same without the risk

There are many more benefits than simply a shiny coat, which olive oil will just not help. My cat recently got a UTI. Do you know why? Because I strayed from her raw diet and fed her several meals of kibble and canned food. Very high quality kibble and canned food. My vet concurred that this would have caused it. Raw is the only diet she's been on that keeps her healthy plain and simple.

Raw feeders say that it is natural and what they ate before we domesticated dogs.

No, raw feeders claim that this det makes sence when considering the dogs physiological makeup. Not the way it was before they were domesticated, the way they are now.

In conclustion, I agree with Shalva. I don't see why you feel the need to use scare tactics to attack our way of feeding. Your vet disagrees with raw feeding, well mine supports me wholeheartedly, and there are a growing number of vets who see the benefits of raw feeding when done carefully and properly.

 

[Doberluv]

Shalva, your post is very good and informative. However, this part.....not necessary:

However, whatever decision you choose to make, respect should be given to others who make a different feeding decision......

and that having been said I don't understand the need for or the point of your post....

Please have respect for other posters here. There was not ONE thing which was disrespectful or rude about the previous posts. The point of the post was to give an opinion and some information, which is what the forum is all about whether someone agrees or not. The post was absolutely respectful.

 

[Gempress]

^^^^Agree with Doberluv. I think Aussie was just stating a different point of view. No problems here.

But aside from that, I think that the posts on this thread so far (from both viewpoints) have been very interesting and informative.

 

[makka619]

Shalva, your post is very good and informative. However, this part.....not necessary:



Please have respect for other posters here. There was not ONE thing which was disrespectful or rude about the previous posts. The point of the post was to give an opinion and some information, which is what the forum is all about whether someone agrees or not. The post was absolutely respectful.

I agree.

We are all free to give our opinions, and that is exactly what the OP did.

 

[jupiter11600]

The beagle chokes on kibble almost daily... He inhales it to fast and we have to give him a tap on both sides to dislodge it 9 times out of 10 or he'd pass out... we've tried different ways of doing it but he still just sucks it in.. the putz... When I do give him a chicken quarter (Frozen, Only leg thigh, this is why he dosen't get raw b/c this is all he will eat! the brat) he never chokes on it... Just a FYI that kibble is not perfect either....

 

[Shalva]

scvadf

 

[Doberluv]

Having an opinion about raw feeding or kibble or training methods or whether to use a crate or not or any number of subjects, finding fault with a method or way of doing things, (or bashing if you like) describing why someone finds fault with a way of doing something is not the same as as bashing a member here, is not the same as being disrespectful. There is no name calling, no personal, direct attacks on anyone. Even if you don't happen to see the point of a post, the content, the subject, that does not make it against the guidelines or rules of the forum. I read many posts which I don't see a whole lot of "point" to and that I don't have the same opinion about, posts which criticise a method or way of doing something. I do not feel that the poster is being disrespectful unless they are directly insulting or being nasty to a member of the forum. There is a difference. If I don't care for a post or thread, if I don't like the content, see no point in it, I skip over to reading another thead and don't take part in that one. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Discodog]

You can find Natural Diet Foundation Guidelines at this site: http://phdproducts.com/main/phdpage.asp?page=155
I fed a raw food diet for a while and it was really great, but alas, the work, time and expense involved drove me back to a "regular" dog food diet.

 

[terrier terror]

If my dogs can lick their butts and live to do it again, I think they can handle raw.

 

[bubbatd]

I believe the rule is to freeze raw meat first to kill bacteria etc . When it comes to raw bones .. I feel that's when common sense comes in ....size of bone , size of dog . I personally will never give my dog ANY raw chicken bones or ribs. I give only bones that have to be gnawed on and I can keep track of .

 

[Doberluv]

If my dogs can lick their butts and live to do it again, I think they can handle raw.

:lol-sign: Too funny!

Yes, when I think of the nasty things one of my dogs, Jose' eats, and never gets sick, I couldn't worry about raw meat. I mean he eats dog poop, deer poop, goose poop, moose poop. It's not that I encourage it, but sometimes he gets away with it. And nothing has happened to him yet. My Lab use to get her own raw food diet by hunting and eating wild rabbits and she lived a pretty long and healthy life. I would be horrified if I saw a human doing that, :yikes: but a dog....it's what they do.

 

[Aussie Red]

I did not post this to say any one persons way was wrong ! That being said I posted as education in response to others basically calling my vet an idiot !
If again I trust my vet to do surgery etc would I not trust where he leads me on diet ? I check out my dogs doctors very good before using them and see if they are up to date on everything.
I believe I said at the beginning that I WOULDN'T RISK IT !!!!! What you chose is your choice and what I do is mine. I fell that this gives a prospective to those who are as yet undecided. If you disagree with me answer me with a respectful tone or don't answer at all. I will not fight with you as you prove you are one who will not listen to a person who feels differently then you. This is by the way dirrected at Shalva. If you disagree so be it I did say it is up to you ! I would expect that with the evidance in your face you would say it's bogus I can assure you it is not but what ever. As to me posting I have the right to express my opinions and you yours and lets leave it at that but you can and should do so in a respectfull way ! Thanks Doberluv and Gempress for pointing that out as well.
Nothing in this post is made up. I was given these fact and based my decission on them also given facts about raw benifits as well and chose what I did. Many here go by what they hear and dont get both sides to base a decission on so that is my logic. It is also clear that many did not read post in entirety but the parts they wanted. so be it. Now I will kindly get back down off my soap box !