I hate when the U.S. gets involved

[whatszmatter]

If the AKC really has its hands clean from the destruction of working breeds, why is it that there conformation standards are different from FCI (international) standards concerning the GSD? I don't know about other breeds, don't follow them that much. WHy is it that their "champion" dogs don't even follow the conformation rules they have set forth? Why do they keep putting judges up to judge shows and giving them certification to do the judging when they put up substandard dogs to win? Why is it the judges the AKC trains to judge the shows can't keep a breed to a standard? If the substandard dogs wouldn't win, they wouldn't be breeding them.

Its a two part problem, and breeders and the AKC share equally as far as I'm concerned, well that and the people that want GSD's that look pretty and can't work. I guess they'll never realize that they don't have a GSD, they have a shell of a fine working animal.

 

[Miakoda]

If the AKC really has its hands clean from the destruction of working breeds, why is it that there conformation standards are different from FCI (international) standards concerning the GSD? I don't know about other breeds, don't follow them that much. WHy is it that their "champion" dogs don't even follow the conformation rules they have set forth? Why do they keep putting judges up to judge shows and giving them certification to do the judging when they put up substandard dogs to win? Why is it the judges the AKC trains to judge the shows can't keep a breed to a standard? If the substandard dogs wouldn't win, they wouldn't be breeding them.

Its a two part problem, and breeders and the AKC share equally as far as I'm concerned, well that and the people that want GSD's that look pretty and can't work. I guess they'll never realize that they don't have a GSD, they have a shell of a fine working animal.

The AKC is in business for money....nothing else. They don't really care about the conservation of working breeds, or any other breed for that matter. If that was the case, why are they the go-to registry for puppy mills all across the country? We all know AKC dogs sell for more than CKC or UKC dogs.

No one is saying they are innocent, but just because they allow something to happen, & even encourage it by placing these poor quality dogs in shows, doesn't mean that breeders HAVE to conform to these breeding practices.

 

[casablanca1]

No one is saying they are innocent, but just because they allow something to happen, & even encourage it by placing these poor quality dogs in shows, doesn't mean that breeders HAVE to conform to these breeding practices.

True, but as a hugely influential registry, it doesn't have the 'no-fault' shield it always claims. If puppy milling itself were a crime, the AKC would be the big fish the police would eventually target, because they're the organization that essentially makes the whole nasty business possible. We can blame individual breeders, millers and buyers, but shutting down kennels and educating individuals will never have the effect of a change of mission at the AKC.

 

[Laurelin]

Imo, it's the breeders at specific kennels that begin to value conformation titles as the most important 'proof' of their breeding stock that is the problem. Breed clubs have an awful lot of influence regarding the standard and what the judges see as the best examples of the breed. You can't totally blame the judges, either. They get presented day to day with a majority of show line dogs. It's what they're used to, so they are more than likely going to put those dogs up. Sure, they should learn, but honestly, no one's really going out and educating them.

I for one have little problem with the show coats on gundogs provided the structure and drive of the dog is still there. You can always cut it, and plus, many dogs in the ring do trials after their show career is over. Their coat isn't nearly as worn as a dog out of the ring, also attributing to the growth. The bigger issues are the breeds that have lost drive and structure.

I'd love for the AKC to emphasize sporting and working more, but it's not going to happen. So to me, it falls on the breeders to preserve the breed as they see it. AKC registration will promote showing in the breed, and some breeders will fall to that. No one is forced to.

Sorry if I'm sounding a little annoyed, it's just that it gets kind of old hearing about how American lined dogs are nothing except beauty queens. I constantly feel like I have to defend my dogs' intelligence and worthiness to people. I know plenty of show lined dogs that still have what it takes to do what the breed was bred to do. Albeit they aren't border collies or german shepherds, which are some of the more debated breeds.

Yeah, the AKC registry isn't set up to promote both working ability and conformation ability, some registries have done a bit better at maintaining this, some haven't. There's problems with them all. In a perfect world, excellence in both would be achievable, and that's what breeders should be aiming for, but in reality, it can't be achieved with the way things are right now, and I doubt they'll change. People will just have to understand that other breeders will value aspects that they themselves don't whether they like it or not. Working dog breeders will cringe at the sight of a show dog of the breed, and show breeders will cringe at the sight of a working dog. Neither of them see the other as the true representative of the breed. I'm not saying one is more right than the other- we'll leave my opinions out of it.

This is one of the main reasons I decided against becoming involved in a herding breed, although I love them to death.

Miakoda, I'm assuming the CKC you're talking about is the Canadian Kennel Club? Just clarifying. I don't put any kind of stock into the continental kennel club.

 

[whatszmatter]

The AKC is in business for money....nothing else. They don't really care about the conservation of working breeds, or any other breed for that matter. If that was the case, why are they the go-to registry for puppy mills all across the country? We all know AKC dogs sell for more than CKC or UKC dogs.

No one is saying they are innocent, but just because they allow something to happen, & even encourage it by placing these poor quality dogs in shows, doesn't mean that breeders HAVE to conform to these breeding practices.

Exactly the AKC (as stupid as it seems to me) actually MEANS something. They stand as a keeper for the breeds, their Reputation to the general public is of a body that keeps breeds pure and correct, when in fact they seem to care more about money. I know money makes the world go round, but some ethics have to be involved.

as sad as it is, lots of these breeders are associated directly with the judges and top members in the AKC. They scratch each others backs to make more money, and it makes me sick.

 

[Laurelin]

Exactly the AKC (as stupid as it seems to me) actually MEANS something. They stand as a keeper for the breeds, their Reputation to the general public is of a body that keeps breeds pure and correct, when in fact they seem to care more about money. I know money makes the world go round, but some ethics have to be involved.

as sad as it is, lots of these breeders are associated directly with the judges and top members in the AKC. They scratch each others backs to make more money, and it makes me sick.

That happens everywhere. Coughpoliticscough....

Corruption at it's best.

 

[tempura tantrum]

Imo, it's the breeders at specific kennels that begin to value conformation titles as the most important 'proof' of their breeding stock that is the problem. Breed clubs have an awful lot of influence regarding the standard and what the judges see as the best examples of the breed. You can't totally blame the judges, either. They get presented day to day with a majority of show line dogs. It's what they're used to, so they are more than likely going to put those dogs up. Sure, they should learn, but honestly, no one's really going out and educating them.

I for one have little problem with the show coats on gundogs provided the structure and drive of the dog is still there. You can always cut it, and plus, many dogs in the ring do trials after their show career is over. Their coat isn't nearly as worn as a dog out of the ring, also attributing to the growth. The bigger issues are the breeds that have lost drive and structure.

I'd love for the AKC to emphasize sporting and working more, but it's not going to happen. So to me, it falls on the breeders to preserve the breed as they see it. AKC registration will promote showing in the breed, and some breeders will fall to that. No one is forced to.

Sorry if I'm sounding a little annoyed, it's just that it gets kind of old hearing about how American lined dogs are nothing except beauty queens. I constantly feel like I have to defend my dogs' intelligence and worthiness to people. I know plenty of show lined dogs that still have what it takes to do what the breed was bred to do. Albeit they aren't border collies or german shepherds, which are some of the more debated breeds.

Yeah, the AKC registry isn't set up to promote both working ability and conformation ability, some registries have done a bit better at maintaining this, some haven't. There's problems with them all. In a perfect world, excellence in both would be achievable, and that's what breeders should be aiming for, but in reality, it can't be achieved with the way things are right now, and I doubt they'll change. People will just have to understand that other breeders will value aspects that they themselves don't whether they like it or not. Working dog breeders will cringe at the sight of a show dog of the breed, and show breeders will cringe at the site of a working dog. Neither of them see the other as the true representative of the breed. I'm not saying one is more right than the other- we'll leave my opinions out of it.

This is one of the main reasons I decided against becoming involved in a herding breed, although I love them to death.

Miakoda, I'm assuming the CKC you're talking about is the Canadian Kennel Club? Just clarifying. I don't put any kind of stock into the continental kennel club.
__________________

Great post!

 

[princess_poppy]

it's not just the US who ruin breeds, it also happens all over the world.

i think one of the worst is the american show bred GSD's. people who breed dogs should show there dogs in the sport that there dog was bred for or in the activity. That working sibe was lovely, much better looking than the show one.

I don't know much about showing in america as i live in the UK but over here many people who do show there dogs also do sports with them eg. one welshie (mwa) who won best gundog in crufts also works and does gundog trials as they have to keep it tone up.

 

[Boemy]

The AKC only cares about money, which should be clear from their recent attempt to register puppy mill dogs with them. How about the Eukabana championships? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Eukabana a "crap" food with corn as the main ingredient? But there their name is on the championship.

The AKC may be "only a registery", but it's their judges who award the championships to animals who so widely deviate from the working lines of the breed that they can't fulfill the breed's original function. They're creating demand for these animals by awarding them. Some people say, "That's the fault of the breeders, the judges have no working specimens of the breed in the ring to award, but they would really prefer to see working dogs." Balderdash. A field English setter or labrador retriever would be laughed out of the ring.

Having read through the minutes of the AKC's meetings, which are posted on their website, I'm frankly appalled by their attitude towards many aspects of dogs and showing.

 

[SizzleDog]

Americans aren't the only ones ruining dogs - I dislike what certain breeders in the UK has done to Dobermans - waaay oversized, clunky - many of them look like smooth coated Rottweilers with long noses.

The thing is, not *every* American breeder is ruining their breed. I think it's easy for an outsider to criticize a breed - but they're not privy to the trends in the breed, what's going on in the breed, yadda yadda yadda. People say that show bred Dobermans can't work and are "wussies"... but have these people ever seen a WAC? Probably not - I'd venture to say that the critics don't even know what the WAE is. My American-bred, show-line Dobermans have protected me several times... there's nothing wussy or insubstantial about them.

 

[Laurelin]

Americans aren't the only ones ruining dogs - I dislike what certain breeders in the UK has done to Dobermans - waaay oversized, clunky - many of them look like smooth coated Rottweilers with long noses.

The thing is, not *every* American breeder is ruining their breed. I think it's easy for an outsider to criticize a breed - but they're not privy to the trends in the breed, what's going on in the breed, yadda yadda yadda. People say that show bred Dobermans can't work and are "wussies"... but have these people ever seen a WAC? Probably not - I'd venture to say that the critics don't even know what the WAE is. My American-bred, show-line Dobermans have protected me several times... there's nothing wussy or insubstantial about them.

I agree 100% A ton of people who criticize don't show or work their dogs. I've seen plenty of byb pushing an akc registration as a reason their dogs are worth something, but I've also seen people who purchase their dogs from bybs and find that they are not show type, so they claim their dogs to be 'working type' and condemn the flashiness of the show bred dogs.

Yeah, there are some pieces of work in every breed. I won't go into the papillon people in the AKC I don't agree with.

Imho, if anyone is 'ruining' the papillon breed, it's the English breeders. They breed thick, longer coats on their dogs and focus way too much on markings imo. Some really nice dogs wouldn't be able to be shown their simply for lacking a blaze or having too much color on their body. AKC breeders are much more lax about that and so are judges nowadays. It took some time, but it's becoming much more a norm. Same thing with ticking on papillons. People who aren't involved in showing often times only notice things when the AKC is involved. It happens everywhere, I can assure you of that.

Boemy, I never said that the judges would rather see a field bred dog. I said the seminars, etc when they are learning show them show bred dogs. How can you expect them to not place show types? It's what they see as the norm, and they're not all familiar with every issue in every breed. They deal with the standard and what they've been told is the best representative of that standard.

 

[SizzleDog]

YES! Seminars! Show me one outside critic that has attended a seminar for the breed they're tearing down - maybe the fancy is in the process of fixing the very thing the critic is complaining about... but how would the critic know without any firsthand knowledge of what is going on in the fancy.

I don't stick my mose in the business of breeds that I'm not familiar with. I don't know the first thing about GSDs, but I'll happily comment on the state of the English Setter breed. I don't have anything to say about Papillons, but I can defend the Doberman to its critics.

 

[Laurelin]

We're pretty lucky in the fact that you can import a dog from about anywhere and finish them in the AKC or another club. When Beau showed, there were at least dogs from 4 other countries in the ring. Many American bred dogs have multiple International champs in their line. Harry has champs from England, Finland, the US, and Japan in 5 generations. Plus, breeders from Sweden and Belgium, which are regarded as the top of papillon breeders are importing from the US. Kirby went to Crufts and won breed, he's all American. Sure there are some small differences, but they're small. If you have a good dog, it'll place.

i'm getting off topic lol... sort of

 

[RD]

I don't stick my mose in the business of breeds that I'm not familiar with. I don't know the first thing about GSDs, but I'll happily comment on the state of the English Setter breed. I don't have anything to say about Papillons, but I can defend the Doberman to its critics.

Exactly. I tend to shut up about breeds I'm not familiar with, because it's just not my business.

I don't think it's the U.S. that's ruining the Border Collie, it's the "breed for looks" mindset. Its happening in all countries. In the UK, there is the kennel club and their Border Collies are just as short, fat and hairy as their American counterparts. I've seen Border Collies from South Africa, Japan, Germany, Mexico . . . They're all more or less the same. Cookie cutter dogs that couldn't tell a sheep from a cashmere sweater.

I don't agree with deviating from the breed's original purpose, in terms of breeding. Conformation has nothing to do with what makes the Border Collie - the most important thing is that they can conform to a working standard. Breeding for appearance as well as working ability will not give you the best of both worlds. A jack of all trades is a master of none. The dog may be able to finish in the show ring and it may be able to "herd" a bit, but it won't win as much as the dogs bred exclusively for show, nor will it be as useful on a farm as a dog bred to work. Not to mention that a lot of the dogs winning in the ring today would be physically incapable of working. A dog that fit the breed standard would be physically suited to working, but as I've looked at it, most of the working Border Collies I know *do* fit the standard. To a tee. The standard isn't the issue, it's the trends in the show ring. Those working bred dogs would be laughed out of the ring because they don't have heavy coats, perfectly tipped "Lassie" ears, symmetrical markings and a flying trot gait. Yet according to the standard, they are correct . . . . Hmm.

Some breeds are just destined to be split, and I think the Border Collie is one of them. You can't breed for "versatility" and have a dog that can compete with the dogs bred specifically *to* work. And since the Border Collie is still heavily relied upon as a working dog, I feel that the first and foremost priority in breeding should be to preserve the health, working ability and wide gene pool of this breed. Jmo though

Some rather random but interesting reading: http://www.bordercollie.org/kpgene.html

 

[Laurelin]

Totally off topic, but the pic of your bc in your av is adorable.

 

[PFC1]

What would be interesting is if AKC shows were more like 2-3 day events.

Day #1: Dog get's assessed, conformation.

Day #2: Dog is tested for working ability in the breeds original purpose.

Each part of the show would account equally when ranking the dogs.

That way, even if you had the most BEAUTIFUL BC, it wouldn't get ranked as high due to it's horrid work ethic.

~Tucker

Hmmm. . . . what would the second day of Stafordshire Terrior competition look like?