I fear for the Malinois breed...
- Thread starter Muttkip
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Belgians of any sort don't tend to make good "kennel dogs". Many don't handle continued confinement very well at all. I've known a few who couldn't really handle being crated. Your story doesn't make me think "what a crazy dog" but makes me sad for the dog to have to be so stressed being kenneled day in and day out.
No doubt people unfamiliar with protection training mistake stick hits in protection training as "abuse". I have heard that argument many times over the years about protection sports and no doubt, police dogs need much more intense proofing. However, one can't deny there are some abusive police dog trainers/handlers out there either. Like I said earlier, how police dogs are viewed, treated and handled seems to vary a lot depending on the people involved.
No doubt people unfamiliar with protection training mistake stick hits in protection training as "abuse". I have heard that argument many times over the years about protection sports and no doubt, police dogs need much more intense proofing. However, one can't deny there are some abusive police dog trainers/handlers out there either. Like I said earlier, how police dogs are viewed, treated and handled seems to vary a lot depending on the people involved.
I think that a lot of the discussion in this thread (and the points being made) aren't limited to the Malinois breed alone. Heck, *most* people wouldn't be able to tell a Malinois from a GSD if they were standing side by side.
People in general get dogs they don't know how to handle, they don't know anything about (temperament and activity wise, not to mention health), and they get them from people who have no business breeding.
Everybody LOVES puppies, but people are often not willing to give a pup the training and attention needed to make them a good dog.
I think a better title for this thread might be "I fear for dogs."
People in general get dogs they don't know how to handle, they don't know anything about (temperament and activity wise, not to mention health), and they get them from people who have no business breeding.
Everybody LOVES puppies, but people are often not willing to give a pup the training and attention needed to make them a good dog.
I think a better title for this thread might be "I fear for dogs."
Exactly. My MIL got a Shih-Tzu pup about a year ago. The puppy, as of last week, was still a frenzied little beast, had zero focus on people, just zoomed around in his own little idiot world. It wasn't the dog's fault....MIL has no idea how to raise a puppy or properly interact with any dog. She re-homed it on Sunday to a nice woman who plans to do therapy dog with it, the dog lucked out for sure.
Now I picture if MIL had purchased a Mal. :yikes: She and/or guests in her home probably would have ended up seriously injured, she'd have been absolutely terrified of her own dog, and finding an untrained out-of-control Mal a new home would not have been so easy.
Now I picture if MIL had purchased a Mal. :yikes: She and/or guests in her home probably would have ended up seriously injured, she'd have been absolutely terrified of her own dog, and finding an untrained out-of-control Mal a new home would not have been so easy.
I agree with this one 100%. Honestly, I live in Birmingham, Alabama and I don't think I've ever seen a Malinois in person, and that says something since I've been to many dog social events( not dog sports). They are probably more common in other areas, sure, but they are far from well known. I also volunteer at a humane society a couple of times a week and have yet to see anyone bring in a Malinois. I've seen plenty of labs, pits, and rotts though. Sure, it is scary to think about an inexperience person taking in a Malinois, but I can say that about so many breeds it is weird to just single out one difficult breed.
And this sitaution can be applied to so many breeds. I remember volunteering in Petsmart and seeing a women with what look like a four month old lab puppy with a choke collar who kept constantly hanking it hard with frustration. I felt so bad for the puppy and I couldn't help fear for the dog's future. I wouldn't be surprise if that dog ended up in a shelter, the women seem like she was over her head with the pup.
And this sitaution can be applied to so many breeds. I remember volunteering in Petsmart and seeing a women with what look like a four month old lab puppy with a choke collar who kept constantly hanking it hard with frustration. I felt so bad for the puppy and I couldn't help fear for the dog's future. I wouldn't be surprise if that dog ended up in a shelter, the women seem like she was over her head with the pup.
Pan, yup. I'm glad the shih tzu found a good home. My dad at one point said he'd like a mal. I had a mini stroke then began a tirade. What a disaster in the making. Luckily I think he'll stick with the rat terriers now.
Ps, there is nothing weird about singling out Malinois after owning them. They are complicated, demanding, and over all a different type of challenging. (insert shrug here
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Ps, there is nothing weird about singling out Malinois after owning them. They are complicated, demanding, and over all a different type of challenging. (insert shrug here
)
Oh Backup, lol. I like the lemur in repose, but Arnold looks very unimpressed!
I agree, most people need to stay far far away from Malinois. Its easy to see how demanding they are and that they require someone who actually WANTS and can properly channel that insanity.
Adrianne, I had several tirades (politely lol) at my best friend's mom before she went and picked up Scout from MT... didn't stop her. And I still ended up with the friggin' dog cleaning up their mess. I was doing temp work at the time and couch hopping because of it, very very sad when the screwed up rescue GSD mix found that a thousand times more stable than being in a family home. They just never ever could have given her what she needs. And I don't think she's difficult at all in the big scheme of things. Those people just collect dogs and fail them one by one... Ugh. She's a very very good example of how badly you can screw up a dog with good intentions and sheer cluelessness.
Apparently my next door neighbors are all impressed that my dogs aren't barky and obnoxious. They have at least three labs and I am honestly not sure how many little dogs (in a city with a three dog limit no less....) and ALL of them nuisance bark. They aren't outdoor only either, they just have zero structure, real exercise, or training. They are annoying as hell, but if they were a breed like a Mal or GSD or even an ACD they could be a serious legal liability because working dog breeds aren't good pets for most people and don't have that forgiveness element for irresponsibility like some other breeds do.
I agree, most people need to stay far far away from Malinois. Its easy to see how demanding they are and that they require someone who actually WANTS and can properly channel that insanity.
Adrianne, I had several tirades (politely lol) at my best friend's mom before she went and picked up Scout from MT... didn't stop her. And I still ended up with the friggin' dog cleaning up their mess. I was doing temp work at the time and couch hopping because of it, very very sad when the screwed up rescue GSD mix found that a thousand times more stable than being in a family home. They just never ever could have given her what she needs. And I don't think she's difficult at all in the big scheme of things. Those people just collect dogs and fail them one by one... Ugh. She's a very very good example of how badly you can screw up a dog with good intentions and sheer cluelessness.
Apparently my next door neighbors are all impressed that my dogs aren't barky and obnoxious. They have at least three labs and I am honestly not sure how many little dogs (in a city with a three dog limit no less....) and ALL of them nuisance bark. They aren't outdoor only either, they just have zero structure, real exercise, or training. They are annoying as hell, but if they were a breed like a Mal or GSD or even an ACD they could be a serious legal liability because working dog breeds aren't good pets for most people and don't have that forgiveness element for irresponsibility like some other breeds do.
Have it end up okay for whom?
The person, or the dog?
I know I'm new here and certainly don't have any problem with folks being especially concerned about "their" breed (in this case, the Malinois). But in taking a look at the shelters around here - it's all pits and pit mixes (thank you Mike Vick ). Years ago it was the dobie, or the rottie, or the GSD. Even Dalmatians have had their issues.
Hell, I spent the last 20 years being owned by basenji and they are DEFINITELY not a breed for a first time owner. Ask any breed specialist and most of them will say their breed needs "special" considerations.
I feel for any dog that is subjected to ignorant owners.
The person, or the dog?
I know I'm new here and certainly don't have any problem with folks being especially concerned about "their" breed (in this case, the Malinois). But in taking a look at the shelters around here - it's all pits and pit mixes (thank you Mike Vick
). Years ago it was the dobie, or the rottie, or the GSD. Even Dalmatians have had their issues.Hell, I spent the last 20 years being owned by basenji and they are DEFINITELY not a breed for a first time owner. Ask any breed specialist and most of them will say their breed needs "special" considerations.
I feel for any dog that is subjected to ignorant owners.
I don't know, one of the clients where I work had the last digit of her finger bitten off by her Shih Tzu. No finding that dog a new home either.
LOL having been around Basenjis I definitely find them much more difficult than a sound Belgian of any variety.
I do think Belgians are quirky, weird and difficult dogs for many owners. I think GSDs are at least as difficult for many owners. And PyrSheps are definitely not a dog which would appeal to most people. But sometimes during these sorts of discussions, I think of a talk I had with a long time breeder of another "complicated" herding breed who now has a PyrShep. I asked her what she thought of the breed's reputation, how she found them to be, if they were really as difficult and unique as so many make them out to be. She said "well I know how to raise a herding breed puppy and he's not been any more difficult than my other puppies, easier than some actually". Then she said "sometimes I listen to the things people say about this breed and believe about them, how you can't do this or that with them and you have to do such or such with them and I thinkyou know...they're just dogs".
It's obvious breeds of dogs all have temperaments which make them suited or not to the jobs they were meant to perform. And some of those temperament characteristics can make it more or less difficult for certain types of owners. I don't find Belgians of any sort all that difficult but I don't relate well to many of the Nordic or primitive breeds. Not that I don't admire them or know ones I like, just they don't fit me. So for me a Malamute or Basenji or Samoyed would probably be way more difficult than any sort of Belgian or PyrShep or GSD or... Someone at the trial this weekend that I've known forever saw me with Savvy and said "you sure like your herding breeds don't you?".
In the end, if a dog works out or not largely depends on how dedicated the owner is to doing right by the dog. If you get a Mal and expect it to live in a crate or kennel run for hours upon hours upon hours than you aren't doing right by the dog and it's unlikely to work out. If you get a Mal and love an interactive, biddable, quirky, active dog that you want to teach to do all sorts of things, go everywhere with you, take on long hikes and have a really solid relationship with, chances are pretty good that you will do right by the dog and be pretty happy with it, providing the dog has a reasonably sound temperament. There are plenty of sport owners who take the former approach and plenty of pet owners who take the later, so you can't always judge how suited one would be by what activities they do with their dogs.
LOL having been around Basenjis I definitely find them much more difficult than a sound Belgian of any variety.
I do think Belgians are quirky, weird and difficult dogs for many owners. I think GSDs are at least as difficult for many owners. And PyrSheps are definitely not a dog which would appeal to most people. But sometimes during these sorts of discussions, I think of a talk I had with a long time breeder of another "complicated" herding breed who now has a PyrShep. I asked her what she thought of the breed's reputation, how she found them to be, if they were really as difficult and unique as so many make them out to be. She said "well I know how to raise a herding breed puppy and he's not been any more difficult than my other puppies, easier than some actually". Then she said "sometimes I listen to the things people say about this breed and believe about them, how you can't do this or that with them and you have to do such or such with them and I thinkyou know...they're just dogs".
It's obvious breeds of dogs all have temperaments which make them suited or not to the jobs they were meant to perform. And some of those temperament characteristics can make it more or less difficult for certain types of owners. I don't find Belgians of any sort all that difficult but I don't relate well to many of the Nordic or primitive breeds. Not that I don't admire them or know ones I like, just they don't fit me. So for me a Malamute or Basenji or Samoyed would probably be way more difficult than any sort of Belgian or PyrShep or GSD or... Someone at the trial this weekend that I've known forever saw me with Savvy and said "you sure like your herding breeds don't you?".
In the end, if a dog works out or not largely depends on how dedicated the owner is to doing right by the dog. If you get a Mal and expect it to live in a crate or kennel run for hours upon hours upon hours than you aren't doing right by the dog and it's unlikely to work out. If you get a Mal and love an interactive, biddable, quirky, active dog that you want to teach to do all sorts of things, go everywhere with you, take on long hikes and have a really solid relationship with, chances are pretty good that you will do right by the dog and be pretty happy with it, providing the dog has a reasonably sound temperament. There are plenty of sport owners who take the former approach and plenty of pet owners who take the later, so you can't always judge how suited one would be by what activities they do with their dogs.
depends on your definition. what i see is a moron using a slightly rough alpha roll which he was almost certainly taught by a "professional trainer" somewhere/when. while it is some seriously ignorant $#!+, i don't see the wanton violence of abuse. now contrast that w/ vick & his buddies betting on body slamming a dog to death. so no i'm not going to call that abuse just **** poor training of the dog handler.
i get where you're coming from. i've seen the same attitude toward heelers & toward blackmouth curs because they "look like a lab."
i get where you're coming from. i've seen the same attitude toward heelers & toward blackmouth curs because they "look like a lab."
Where is the line drawn though? Is this acceptable as a training technique as well?: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2012/02/north-carolina-trooper-kicks-police-dog.html
I suppose you know it's gone to far when the dog is killed by the "training methods" used: http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Trial-for-Cop-Accused-of-Kicking-Police-Dog-Begins-99314109.html
I suppose you know it's gone to far when the dog is killed by the "training methods" used: http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Trial-for-Cop-Accused-of-Kicking-Police-Dog-Begins-99314109.html
Great post. Especially the "You know... they're just dogs." I think a lot of people get hung up on having the coolest, biggest, baddest dog and at the end of the day forget that its a dog with normal dog needs.
I like your point about certain people clicking with certain breeds too. Having my little mini Aussie foster guy showed me that he is soooooo not my type of dog. I love him and we had a ton of fun working together, but I much prefer shepherds (both belgian and german) and sled dogs to the intense Aussie type. And the whole tiny dog thing is just not my cup of tea, at all.
That is utterly horrifying. Especially given how Scoutie gets over the top in drive when we play and can't shut her yap. I could never, ever imagine getting mad and kicking her. Hell her obnoxious barking makes me laugh. A lot!
I have to say people like that are part of the reason Scout is still with me and always will be. One of the questions I asked people who were interested in her was what they would do if they forgot to kennel her up and came home to a shredded house. Every single one said at minumum they'd chase her down and yell at her so she would know she did wrong... most also said they would "spank" her. She's a dog, she wouldn't make that connection! And it would completely and utterly destroy her given how sensitive she is. I still can't believe that is the logical answer these people had. Just can't believe it.
When I forgot to double lock her kennel last spring and she shredded literally all the dog equipment and a couple pairs of shoes, etc. I was so impressed at the sheer level of destruction I couldn't even get mad. Also, she hasn't had issues with this sort of thing in months because the source of her anxiety (violent upstairs neighbors) got evicted thank goodness.
I like your point about certain people clicking with certain breeds too. Having my little mini Aussie foster guy showed me that he is soooooo not my type of dog. I love him and we had a ton of fun working together, but I much prefer shepherds (both belgian and german) and sled dogs to the intense Aussie type. And the whole tiny dog thing is just not my cup of tea, at all.
That is utterly horrifying. Especially given how Scoutie gets over the top in drive when we play and can't shut her yap. I could never, ever imagine getting mad and kicking her. Hell her obnoxious barking makes me laugh. A lot!
I have to say people like that are part of the reason Scout is still with me and always will be. One of the questions I asked people who were interested in her was what they would do if they forgot to kennel her up and came home to a shredded house. Every single one said at minumum they'd chase her down and yell at her so she would know she did wrong... most also said they would "spank" her. She's a dog, she wouldn't make that connection! And it would completely and utterly destroy her given how sensitive she is. I still can't believe that is the logical answer these people had. Just can't believe it.
When I forgot to double lock her kennel last spring and she shredded literally all the dog equipment and a couple pairs of shoes, etc. I was so impressed at the sheer level of destruction I couldn't even get mad. Also, she hasn't had issues with this sort of thing in months because the source of her anxiety (violent upstairs neighbors) got evicted thank goodness.