How Many Dogs is Too Many to Own??

[Lilavati]

15 pets is not hording. It COULD be, if the animals were not well treated.

But there was a time, after my father had merged another pack into his, that he had 80 beagles. (Notably, it was because of the new "animal protection laws" in Louisville that he had to do this . . . the other pack was in danger of being seized, and most of those hounds would not have been easily adoptable. Likely, they would have been killed) But every hound was well fed, housed, cared for, and, as far as I could tell, just as happy as a clam.

At the same time there were also 3 or 4 spaniels, my mother's poodle, a terrier or two, a dachshund, and a mixed breed lab/greyhound that lived with the beagles. Not to mention the cats, and the horses, and a donkey, and a couple of peacocks. (I can't confirm that all these animals were present at the same time . . . they arrived, and died of old age throughout that period)

Now I can easily imagine an situation with an identical number of animals that WOULD be hording. But hording implies that the owner is overwhelmed by the care of the animals, and moreover, can't stop getting more.

Also, of course, AR people may argue that people are hording if their house is not spotless, if each animal is not cared for like a coddled family pet . . . but AR people insist many things that are just plain silly. Anyone who has seen real cases of hording should have no trouble distinguishing them from people who just have a lot of animals.

 

[ACooper]

I feel pretty safe in saying that those 80 hounds, donkeys, peacocks, horses, other dogs, and most likely the cats were all outdoor animals Lil. A couple *might* have been allowed indoors (like maybe your mom's dog) but I'd wager your parents didn't have 28 + animals running around indoors.

Quite a difference in a country setting with outdoor barns and kennel houses for lots of animals than keeping them all inside the home you live in, in town, with ordinances against such things.

 

[AllieMackie]

Honestly, I can't see myself having an illegal animal at all, but aren't ferrets different from dogs just in how you keep them? A dog would have to go outside, etc, whereas ferrets could just stay in the house all the time? Although then what would you do for vet care? I'm guessing you'd either have to go across state lines or find a vet you could sneak it into....

Ack--I'm way too paranoid for that. I won't drive anywhere near the city limits of places with BSL when Sally is in the car....

This is what baffles me, especially the vet thing. Also, ferrets CAN stay inside always, but I feel that it's much better for them to get outside and explore whenever possible (safely, of course.)

Well, that is scary indeed. Why are ferrets disallowed anyway? Are they considered a wild animal? I thought they were pets. You'd think a neighbor would have noticed and reported her by now if they're uncared for or a nuissance to the neighbors.

Ferrets are domestic and kept as pets, but they're illegal to keep as pets in California. Something to do with Cali being worried about wild ferret populations developing or something silly like that (most domestic ferrets aren't able to be left to their own devices and would likely die within days of being out alone).

It's likely the neighbours are unaware of her ferrets because they theoretically do not have to go outside. I personally feel that's detrimental to them, and opt to take my girl outside several times a week at least, on a harness and leash.

 

[sillysally]

I think 28 is doable, just a a lot of work. When I worked at the barn there times when I cared for 27 horses by myself. No, they might not be indoors, but it meant graining, haying, and watering them all, checking them over for injuries, taking them in and out individually, cleaning up after them, keeping the very large barn swept, etc. It would actually be a much smaller area to clean in a house. Now, I like barn work much better than house work so it wouldn't be *my* thing, but it's doable.

Lots on here live in situations that I could not imagine and would never choose. Sorry, but I couldn't see having more than 2 kids, or owning over 3 dogs, owning a super intense herder or hardcore guarding breed, having any sort of snake in the house, or owning rats. However, I'm not going to tell people that just because these are choices that I would never make that there is something wrong with them. I disagree with the ferret thing just for the danger it puts the other animals (as well as the ferrets) in, but other than that I see NO evidence that this is hoarding and anything of the sort.

 

[Criosphynx]

I disagree with the ferret thing just for the danger it puts the other animals (as well as the ferrets) in, but other than that I see NO evidence that this is hoarding and anything of the sort.

this is exactly what Iam trying to get at

 

[elegy]

I would jump on anyone who is trying to hide a "pit bull" in a town with BSL, for example, just as much (probably even more).

I really really feel for people who have BSL passed and suddenly the dogs they already own are illegal. I don't have a clue what I'd do in that case- hope that my dogs were grandfathered in, I guess. I'm not in a position to pick up and move.

But it makes me utterly insane when people go out and get pit bulls when they know full well they're not allowed to have them, either due to BSL or due to breed blacklists in their housing. Countless times these dogs end up at the shelter and/or dead because the owner got caught. Selfish. Just so selfish.

But I digress, sort of. It doesn't matter if the law is "wrong". In my eyes, it's irresponsible if you're risking your pet ending up dead because you chose not to follow it.

 

[smkie]

Here is what i have a hard time wrapping my mind around. I worked at a kennel that had approx 30 dogs at any given time. All in runs outdoors. They were taken one by one out for training, for socialization, and the ones that were trained were either rented out, or trialed spring and fall. THat training session for each getting there, doing the test, some basics and back about a half hour. It took two people 8 hrs a day to manage that, feeding and cleaning and that was because that particular kennel was designed beautifully and you could wash down and have it fresh and ready in an hour and one half's time. I do not see where 20 plus animals..or even 15 for that matter would require less. I don't know about cats, dont' pretend to imagine what multiple cats like that would require, i know that 2 left hair on everything and if they had any length at all required regular brushing. I know how much dung that many dogs can leave, and must be cleaned up. I couldn't not bring myself to say it's ok to have that many. I don't give a rat about the law's reason, it isn't ok in my mind because i truly believe that each dog deserves more than they could possibly get in a home of that magnitude. No matter how much the good intentions of a person are. Which is why i posted about my friend who lost them all and all she was doing was the same. Trying to give them some kind of life. I am sure all that she had were unadoptable yet when her pets were seized, they took what she called her personal pets too. I don't know if she had a license for as many as she had or not. I only know she had a nervous breakdown, her husband suffered a massive heart attack during the seizure and all dogs were put down. ..I am sorry Punkie
IT isnt' a risk anyone should take if they live where there is a legal limit because you have to plan for a worst case scenario. There are worse things than dying. I don't know if never getting to be someone's special is like that, but by keeping the ones my mother allowed me to bring in I now know I took that away. Their one chance. It's all a mess wrapped up with love and the best of intentions. Fzc I would never criticize because of dogs like Frankie, i mean they must have had a bottomless pit of money I can't fathom being able to do that. All i know for sure is in my heart i feel it is wrong to make that many dogs to people ratio...with acreage figured in, just doesn't feel right at all. Not to me.

 

[sammgirl]

I know a lady that has 17 dogs, and she also keeps exotic pets such as chinchillas, rabbits and birds. Keeps three breeds, but only has two that she is actually breeding.

My mentor says her house is a zoo, and that there's alot of crating and rotating and outside kennels... It's a pretty busy place, and she has hired helpers that work part time as kennel attendants.

She does live in a city, but it has very lax animal laws and it is not a large city by any means.

IMHO- the number of animals one keeps is a personal choice. Personally, I would not want to live with that many pets. I like being able to give my animals lots of attention, and I doubt I could do that with more then what I will have as of July this year.

And also, I myself am lucky that the number of pets that I am comfortable with is the legal limit for my town. I am lucky that none of the breeds I love are banned or restricted.

 

[Laurelin]

IMHO- the number of animals one keeps is a personal choice. Personally, I would not want to live with that many pets. I like being able to give my animals lots of attention, and I doubt I could do that with more then what I will have as of July this year.

Exactly. Realistically for me 2 or 3 dogs is my limit. 2 is it right now and not only because that's the apartment's limit (although they will give you permission for a third most the time here). Getting a third dog would really make everything more difficult in a lot of ways for me. I think it would be unfair to Mia and Summer to do so.

But then there are people, especially working dog people like hound hunters and mushers, etc that look at their dogs differently. They keep them very well but they live a very different life than my two pet dogs do. But that doesn't make their lifestyle wrong at all. Just different.

The legal issue... well I have a hard time with breed bans and limits for a lot of reasons. I agree its not smart to be over the limit but if you are definitely have a backup plan. I can't say too much because we've been as much as three dogs over the limit before.

 

[TheGoldenRetriever]

Although then what would you do for vet care? I'm guessing you'd either have to go across state lines or find a vet you could sneak it into....

Would seem that way, but no one in CA has to cross state lines to get vet care. It's the same deal as CA pet supply stores openly selling ferret care supplies. ("Openly" meaning no attempts to "disguise" those items as anything other than what they are.) California vets are allowed to treat illegal animals and are not obligated to report those animals. A lot of vets there treat pet ferrets, as well as gerbils and hedgehogs. Their concern is health of those animals, not the animals' legal status.

Some vets have even given permission to be openly listed with various grass-roots efforts lobbying for ferret legalization. CA state officials know about that too, just as they know of ferret care supplies openly sold. But no action is taken because again, vets have no obligation to report and the stores are allowed to sell ferret supplies ... just not live ferrets. CA officials do realize that legal or not, those animals exist in their state and would rather they're at least getting proper care. The current situation in California on ferrets really is one of "don't ask, don't tell". No action is taken unless somebody complains and is willing to have their full name listed on a warrant.

From my understanding, having to many dogs/cats, often AC will give you a chance and time to relocate them, or even look away. My other understanding tho is that if you have ILLEGAL pets as in gerbils, ferrets, hedgehogs etc every animal in your home will be confiscated.

this is just what I have *heard*. I do know of people being busted with illegal reptiles that lost everyone, including fido and whiskers.

Seriously, you personally know people this has happened to? Every animal in the home confiscated? Only asking because in the ferret cases I know about, only the ferrets were at issue. In the Sutter County case mentioned in an earlier post, the family did have other pets. Those were not confiscated, and for that matter neither were the ferrets. The family was fined but given 30 days to re-home, but again only the ferrets. Or are you only referring to illegal reptiles? Or true hoarding cases where it was necessary to remove all the animals?

NV rescue agencies right over the border take in many reported CA ferrets. (A few are close by. I could toss a rock right now and hit California ... but there's probably some law against that over there. ) For anyone in CA not close to the border, there are rescues with proper 501(c)(3) non-profit status within California that have been granted permits to temporarily house ferrets, for eventual re-location to neighboring states. CA residents are normally given 30 days to rehome to rescues ... unless of course, they DON'T know their rights AND they happen to encounter an individual Fish and Game warden or ACO that is overzealously power-mad. But both those things happening together would not seem to be a common occurrence.

Ferrets are domestic and kept as pets, but they're illegal to keep as pets in California. Something to do with Cali being worried about wild ferret populations developing or something silly like that (most domestic ferrets aren't able to be left to their own devices and would likely die within days of being out alone).

It is silly. Fish and Game in that state does claim danger of ferrets creating feral colonies. Another claim is that ferrets are wild animals. But as you point out, they are in fact domestic pets that would die quickly if left outside alone to fend for themselves. But Allie, there was a point that PG mentioned a few pages ago that I was a little surprised you missed. She did not elaborate, but it said:

They think they will form a wild colony and harm our crops. Most ferrets are spayed and neutered when they get here. And even if they did end up outside, they would die in a couple days with our extreme heat in the summer, and the cold in the winter.

That is in fact one claim made by some CA officials ... not only that ferrets will form feral colonies but also that those colonies will start eating up crops, harming the agricultural portion of the state's economy. But as you undoubtedly know, ferrets are not vegetarians ... they're carnivores! Not only carnivores, but obligate carnivores similar to domestic cats. So the agricultural concerns are not based in fact.

Then there's poultry farmers and environmentalists, who at least realize ferrets are obligate carnivores. Poultry farmers claim feral ferret colonies would kill their poultry stock. Environmentalists say feral ferret colonies would kill populations of native birds, leading to complete extinction of those birds.

First problem with those claims is that ferrets, as you aptly pointed out, are extremely unlikely to survive long enough to form feral colonies. Second problem is that there already ARE many colonies of feral cats in California. Domestic cats have already proven that they can survive when left to fend for themselves and they will form feral colonies. Cats, like ferrets, are also obligate carnivores. So then ... why are domestic cats legal in California, but not ferrets?

 

[Criosphynx]

Seriously, you personally know people this has happened to?

absolutely. These were venomous animals and crocodillians. One of the guys is doing time for it still I believe. There are also the many other stories I hear constantly. They are not ferret specific. It does happen tho. Especially if they arrest the person.

I have also talked to people who have had their ferrets siezed and euth'd because all the rescues were full.

also, neglect or not, they might find her to be a hoarder based on numbers alone. Whether or not WE think shes hoarding has no base, its the AC or FW officer that makes that call.

First problem with those claims is that ferrets, as you aptly pointed out, are extremely unlikely to survive long enough to form feral colonies

have you been to southern california? Please point out why these animals could not possibly survive here ferral? I have personally found ferrets and had customers who found ferrets in LAS VEGAS that had been loose and surviving, and thats a way harder climate. They don't form colonies because an unaltered ferret is very rare.

 

[Lilavati]

I feel pretty safe in saying that those 80 hounds, donkeys, peacocks, horses, other dogs, and most likely the cats were all outdoor animals Lil. A couple *might* have been allowed indoors (like maybe your mom's dog) but I'd wager your parents didn't have 28 + animals running around indoors.

Quite a difference in a country setting with outdoor barns and kennel houses for lots of animals than keeping them all inside the home you live in, in town, with ordinances against such things.

That's true. Two of the cats, the poodle, the doxie, and one each of the terriers and spaniels were allowed inside (and the terrier and spaniel mostly lived outside they were just allowed in) My parents would never have tolerated 28+ animals in the house (though there were also small animals occasionally).

However, I'll point out that the fact that Louisville first expanded to take over an entire county, and then put in all sorts of restrictions, including numbers, is why we had 80 hounds to begin with. The other pack was not located in town . . . it was located exactly where it had been located for 30 years . . . the area had grown up, but they were securely and humanely kenneled. The town and the restrictions came to them. Restrictions often create problems where there were none before. WAshington DC, which I live just outside of, requires a special lisence to have more than 4 animals cavy size and up. That would be no problem for an animal lover to hit, even in an apartment, without any problems caring for them.

But yes, that number of animals in a house would be problem (depending on the species) because there would simply not be enough room. It really comes down to context . . . I could imagine say, 10 papilions in a small house . . . I could not imagine 10 great danes in the same house. If we are counting small caged animals, I can imagine ALOT in a house and still well cared for. We had a period of time in which we had 1 dog, 2 cats, 2 cavys, 2 rats, a gecko and fish in a duplex, and had I lived a less busy life could easily have had more critters.

Speaking of the illegal reptiles, I've heard of cases where all the animals on the property were taken too.

 

[TheGoldenRetriever]

absolutely. These were venomous animals and crocodillians. One of the guys is doing time for it still I believe. There are also the many other stories I hear constantly. They are not ferret specific. It does happen tho. Especially if they arrest the person.

Ok fine, just asked if you knew them personally. I do wonder though if they're tougher on venomous species and crocodiles? I have heard they are pretty tough on piranha owners. It makes sense. Any of those (venomous reptiles, crocs, piranhas) could cause serious dangers to people if released in the wild. Also, the area already has enough native venomous species.

I have also talked to people who have had their ferrets siezed and euth'd because all the rescues were full.

That's sad. Was this after 30 days given to re-home? With all rescue options exhausted? Owners can, at their own choice, choose to have their ferrets confiscated and have it left to Fish and Game to decide their fate. I wonder though if anyone who chose that option would freely admit to it? Or perhaps some didn't know until too late that they had other options?

also, neglect or not, they might find her to be a hoarder based on numbers alone. Whether or not WE think shes hoarding has no base, its the AC or FW officer that makes that call.

Right, that goes back to what Doberluv said earlier. No one here has seen with their own two eyes (or smelled anything with their own nose, for that matter). So what people here *think* is just that ... no one knows.

She has posted pictures in the past though, and her animals appeared healthy and well-cared for. -=shrug=-
She has also talked freely of the animals and until recently (post questioning) included all in her sig. Some found that suspicious ... but I still wonder if the change was due to the sudden interrogations .. that she felt intimidated.

On the illegal ferrets ... no, I don't think it was a wise idea to get them. If she had come here and said she was *thinking* of getting ferrets, then I could understand pointing out that they are in fact illegal in her state. But I don't see the point in multiple instances of finger-wagging for it's own sake, regarding ferrets that already exist. At that point, if one is truly concerned about the animals as opposed to just pointing a finger, then I think it's more important to be sure she knows her options should a problem occur.

have you been to southern california?

Yes actually, plenty of times. L.A. area (Laguna Hills and Santa Barbara, mostly), also San Diego and surrounding areas.

Please point out why these animals could not possibly survive here ferral? I have personally found ferrets and had customers who found ferrets in LAS VEGAS that had been loose and surviving, and thats a way harder climate. They don't form colonies because an unaltered ferret is very rare.

Rather than trying to answer myself (and having us going back-and-forth playing forum tag question-and-answer), I can point you to two sources that can likely answer your questions:

Here's something from the California State Library:

Report from the California Research Bureau, "Ferrets: A Selective Overview of Issues and Options, prepared by Kenneth W. Umbach, Ph.D.
Reasons California

Article from SFGate (5 pgs.)
Will California's Ferrets Ever Get to Come in from the Cold? - SFGate

Both point out that no feral colonies of ferrets have been found in the United States, including states where ferrets are legal.

One phenomenon California officials cite is that there are feral colonies of ferrets in New Zealand that have caused problems among native wildlife in that country. But the New Zealand situation was NOT the result of people's pets escaping and spontaneously forming colonies, such as domestic cats are known to do.

In New Zealand domestic ferrets and wild European pole cats were both purposely imported and then interbred. From there, feral colonies of the resultingpurposely mixed animals were carefully cultivated. This was all done in efforts to control New Zealand's exploding population of wild rabbits. As often happens when non-native species are purposely introduced to solve one problem ... it often leads to eventually causing another.

 

[Jules]

I really really feel for people who have BSL passed and suddenly the dogs they already own are illegal. I don't have a clue what I'd do in that case- hope that my dogs were grandfathered in, I guess. I'm not in a position to pick up and move.

But it makes me utterly insane when people go out and get pit bulls when they know full well they're not allowed to have them, either due to BSL or due to breed blacklists in their housing. Countless times these dogs end up at the shelter and/or dead because the owner got caught. Selfish. Just so selfish.

But I digress, sort of. It doesn't matter if the law is "wrong". In my eyes, it's irresponsible if you're risking your pet ending up dead because you chose not to follow it.

My heart goes out to those whose dogs suddenly are illegal if they can't be grandfathered in... I would never judge anyone in a situation like that.

The people who get one even though they know they are illegal- that's what makes me furious. Does it suck that there's a law in place forbidding someone to own a ferret? Sure. But just to go out and get one (from wherever) is a selfish and terrible thing to do.

I just wanted to clarify that again and say that I absolutely agree, elegy.

 

[Criosphynx]

That's sad. Was this after 30 days given to re-home? With all rescue options exhausted? Owners can, at their own choice, choose to have their ferrets confiscated and have it left to Fish and Game to decide their fate. I wonder though if anyone who chose that option would freely admit to it? Or perhaps some didn't know until too late that they had other options?

I would say this is the likey case. I wasn't even aware of the 30 day window until this thread

Ok fine, just asked if you knew them personally. I do wonder though if they're tougher on venomous species and crocodiles? I have heard they are pretty tough on piranha owners. It makes sense. Any of those (venomous reptiles, crocs, piranhas) could cause serious dangers to people if released in the wild. Also, the area already has enough native venomous species.

You might be right, it might be because they are *worse* animals...the distinction I personally made was that AC handles dog and cat stuff and FW handles the other things...if you have ever had to deal with a FW officer (I have many times working in pet stores over the years) they are NOT nice, forgiving people (generally) they tend to try to stick it to you anyway they can. Even if they know your clean

thanks for the links, I'll read them