HELP!!!! With a biting, counter surfing dog

[siren_song10]

My dog is far from being a well behaved dog but for the most part his bad habits are no big deal. But there are two serious issues that we can't seem to figure out how to handle. He's a bernese mountain dog so he got really big really quickly and from the beginning we've had trouble controlling him. Our biggest problem is his attention seeking biting. As a puppy we said he'd eventually grow out of it but he's now a year old and it still persists. If you try to correct him or stop him in any way it gets worse he bites harder refuses to let go. It's not aggressive mind you he just puts his mouth on you, not even very hard but the second you try to stop him he increases the pressure. We've tried bitter apple, muzzles, timeouts, and everything just excites him more and makes the behavior worse. When you try to redirect the behavior or distract him he simply ignores you and no treat or toy will dissuade him from biting. We've now starting carrying around boards so when he starts biting we can shield ourselves with the boards and he eventually stops. But I don't know if doing that is helping the problem and I hate having to give guest boards to fight our dog off with. Is there something else we didn't think of that can help? The second problem is he steals things off the counter and takes them out side and destroys them. I've had to buy two new wallets a purse, shoes, food, paper towels, cooking utensils anything and everything he will grab and take outside. Keys!!!! He steals keys! it's as if he knows exactly what will get me the most mad and then takes it outside to play keep away. It's especially dangerous for him, he got to a bottle of Motrin and has suffered from some permanent liver damage. He's so big their is no place to keep things out of his reach except the top of the fridge. Help Me!!! I'm running out of ideas.
Much Love,
Stephanie

 

[puppylover2007]

um, if i were you i would seriously take him to a professional, not to sound dis hearting, but, when you have to protect yourselves from a dog that bites like that, my mom had a dog that did just that and eventually she had to put him down, because he drew blood. i am not trying to be mean about it, and i am NOT saying to put your dog down, but, when a dog bites for no reason, then some serious action needs to be dealt with and fast, i know there are some people on here ( mostly all of them) who would agree with me as far as looking for some serious help from a pro.

as far as the counter surfing, my thunder ( who is 5 months old and a german lab mix) does this and we use a firm voice and a loud NO! and he gets down. and that does it. you might also want to try finding books to read about biting dogs. especially if you have guests over and there may come a time when that "guest" will sue you over it. but that is IMO only.

i wish you the best of luck and maybe others on here will help you more.

 

[siren_song10]

I think I made the biting sound worse than it is. We use the board because it is the quickest and most convenient way to stop him. We can stay calm and eventually so does the dog. But I feel like that is simply putting a band aid on the problem and not teaching the dog that biting is no way to get what he wants.

 

[puppylover2007]

i know what you are saying but, to me using any kind of "barrier" or band aid to get a dog to stop biting is never a good sign, IMO. do a google search under dog biting and see what comes up, or call your vet and ask them what to do.

 

[corgipower]

Our biggest problem is his attention seeking biting. As a puppy we said he'd eventually grow out of it but he's now a year old and it still persists. If you try to correct him or stop him in any way it gets worse he bites harder refuses to let go. It's not aggressive mind you he just puts his mouth on you, not even very hard but the second you try to stop him he increases the pressure. We've tried bitter apple, muzzles, timeouts, and everything just excites him more and makes the behavior worse. When you try to redirect the behavior or distract him he simply ignores you and no treat or toy will dissuade him from biting.

They only "grow out of it" if they are taught that it's unacceptable. At his age, you should find a good obedience trainer or behaviorist to work with. Bitter apple and muzzles don't teach him to not bite. The worsening of the behavior comes from confusion and frustration ~ he doesn't understand what is expected of him. At the first attempt to mouth or bite, all interaction needs to stop.

The second problem is he steals things off the counter and takes them out side and destroys them. I've had to buy two new wallets a purse, shoes, food, paper towels, cooking utensils anything and everything he will grab and take outside. Keys!!!! He steals keys! it's as if he knows exactly what will get me the most mad and then takes it outside to play keep away. It's especially dangerous for him, he got to a bottle of Motrin and has suffered from some permanent liver damage. He's so big their is no place to keep things out of his reach except the top of the fridge. Help Me!!! I'm running out of ideas.

Work on a "leave it" command as well as teaching him to trade, so that if he does steal something, he learns to bring it to you. Also make sure he has his own toys, and they need to be something he can enjoy. If he doesn't like one toy, try a different one. Also, restrict his access to the counter, or if need be to the entire kitchen.

I would start this dog on a NILIF program.

 

[Gempress]

I agree with puppylover. The counter-surfing and stealing is a pretty normal puppy antic, so I'm not too worried about that. But the biting/mouthing sounds extreme---that should be your big worry. Especially with a dog the size of a Bernese.

Find a good behaviorist. Not a trainer, but a behaviorist...there is a difference in the two. There are many people on this board who may be able to give suggestions, but its hard to help a problem like this over the Internet.

In the meantime, I have a few questions. The biting behavior is being posively reinforced somehow--he's getting some kind of reward out of it---or he wouldn't keep doing it. When he bites, exactly how do you react? Also, what kind of obedience training have you done with him?

Here's what I'd try, if you haven't tried it already. First, work on his obedience. Do practice sessions daily, preferably several times a day. And be sure that every member of the family participates.

You NEED to get your dog into a habit of obedience. I can't stress this enough! It seems that your dog has already figured out that he can be demanding and get away with it, and it *will* get worse as he gets more mature. He's a large, strong dog, and it is absolutely essential that you can control him verbally.

You don't need to use harsh methods in training him. Just be consistent, be patient, and don't give in to his tantrums. It would probably be a good idea to use NILIF with him (Nothing In Life Is Free). Make him do obedience throughout the day. If he wants his favorite toy, he has to lay down. If he wants to go outside, he has to sit first. Every time he wants something, he has to follow a command. By doing this, he learns "obedience = things I like". He also learns that he can't simply demand things...he has to earn them.

If he starts walking up to you to start his mouthing (and from what you've said about using boards to fend him off, I'm assuming you can see it coming), immediately tell him "sit". That's why the training is important: you want that "sit" response to be as automatic as possible. As soon as he drops into a sit, give him the attention and praise he wants. Eventually, he'll sit in front of you to ask for attention instead of biting.

If he starts mouthing, ignore him. Don't look at him, don't even act as if he exists. The *instant* he stops, even if it's just for a second, make him sit. Then give him the attention. If he gets no reward for his biting, he will eventually stop.

Until you get him under control, I wouldn't have him around guests. He may get frustrated one day and draw blood. Keep him in a crate or confined in another room.

I hope I didn't sound overly harsh in this post. If so, I apologize. But it sounds as if you have very serious problem in the making. It needs to be fixed ASAP, while it's still manageable.

EDIT: Corgipower, looks like you and I posted at the same time. Sorry if I repeated anything you said!

 

[siren_song10]

Thank you for the advice,
No you are not being overly harsh. We contacted a behaviorist early on, trying to address the issue. And in some ways he has gotten better. He used to attack in the yard and he doesn't any longer. We've done two levels of obedience and he responds to verbal commands very well when he's not over excited which is when he bites. The only reward I can think of that he gets from biting is attention. It's difficult not to react to his mouthing, because it hurts. The typical reaction is a firm "no bite" and then I try a command or giving him a toy to chew instead. But he then ignores the command or the toy so the only option is to turn and leave. A treat would probably be the only thing that would distract him from biting but them I'm really rewarding the behavior. So what are some other options.

 

[puppylover2007]

i know with Thunder if he gets to hard at play biting, i tell him in a firm voice "no bite" and wait for his response, usually he will stop and give kisses ( awww) and tell me he is sorry for doing to hard. i then reward him with loves and cuddles and say "good dog" and he is happy with that.

trading always works with us, thank goodness for that because we just got new furniture ( over 1200 bucks worth) and when they get to something they are not to have, we trade with a toy or stick or something else. and it works everytime.

 

[Gempress]

The typical reaction is a firm "no bite" and then I try a command or giving him a toy to chew instead. But he then ignores the command or the toy so the only option is to turn and leave.

I would stop using the "no bite". You may as well say "purple platypus"--the words have abolutely no meaning for him, since he still bites even when you say them it. Every time you say a command without a result, the command loses its meaning. If anything, by using the "no bite", you're giving him attention. True, it's negative attention, but it's attention nonetheless. And with many dogs, that's enough to reinforce a behavior.

If you want him to stop by giving him a command, you need to start all over. Pick a completely different phrase like "leave it"---as I said before, "no bite" means nothing to him. And I'd start with treats. Teach him to ignore or drop a treat or toy with the use of the "leave it" command. Only use the command to curb the biting when knows what it means, and is 100% reliable with dropping/ignoring other objects.

Turning and leaving isn't a bad idea. That method is actually used to help teach puppies to stop nipping. He's biting for attention. If he bites, and you immediately turn and leave the room, he's getting the exact opposite of what he wants. Perhaps try leaving the room, give him 30 seconds or so to calm down, then try again.

Another option would be to leave a light line or leash attached to his collar. If he starts to mouth, use it to pull him off and then put him into a sit. Or if there's somebody else in the room with you, they can pull him off.

And he does need to work on his obedience. Take him to areas where there are lots of distraction and things to get excited about. One thing I do with mine is work on obedience during play, when my dogs are the most wound-up. I'll interrupt a wild game of chase/fetch/tug/wrestle with a random "sit" or "down" command, and refuse to continue the game unless they obey. It's worked very well.

As I mentioned before, don't *ever* let your dog ignore a command. Never give a command unless you're able to follow through and insist your dog obey. You want him to learn that listening is not optional. If he knows he can ignore you, the command loses its effectiveness.

Good luck!

 

[Maxy24]

The treat will not be a reward for the biting as long as you are having him do something instead IMO. So making him sit before the biting starts and then giving the treat when he does is rewarding the sit. If he is already biting then hold the treat up to his nose (if normal dog treats are too low value then use something better like hot dog) so he sniffs and lets go. Then command the sit and give the treat AND attention. once again you are rewarding the sitting. The only way I can see him thinking the biting gets the treat is if you fail to mark the automatic good behavior that he offers. What I mean is if he makes the choice to sit instead of bite you should see this and give a treat. If you fail to see him do this and don't reward him for the appropriate behavior, if you only reward him for sitting for attention after he bites, then he will learn that he has to follow the chain of events, Bite+sit=good stuff. If you also reward him when he sits facing you without biting then he will quickly catch on to sit=good stuff. now the treats are mostly to get him to let go and catch on to this whole idea quickly. Since you say he's doing it for attention that will be a good enough reward for this problem once he knows what he is supposed to do. He will learn for attention he must sit facing you, that will be his new greeting behavior.

Another way to ensure he learns that the sitting is what is getting the reward you should eventually stop encouraging him to let go, he should make that choice himself. So to get there you should do that treat to nose for him to let go until he start letting go right away. To ensure that happens make sure you always have treats on hand so you can get him off as quickly as possible.Then once he is letting go as soon as you bring the treat up to his nose every time for a few days, you can move on to the next step. If he bites you are to wait, you said it won't start hurting until you resist so don't resist, just wait. Don't bring the treat out. COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM, don't even look at him. Once he lets go he might sit. If he sits turn into a very happy person, treat and lots of praise, kneel down to his level, tell him he made the right choice. If he lets go but does not sit, don't get entirely happy, but tell him to sit. when he listens turn on to happy person and reward, reward! If he does not let go at all after quite some time (which is unlikely but possible) then you have moved too fast, get him off a different way (if you need to let him sniff the treat) and go back to where he gets to sniff immediately in order to let go. I urge you to try not to move too fast or you may teach him to hold on longer, give him endurance of sorts.

Now assuming he did well and let go on his own during that last section you are to continue doing it that way. He will learn how to get the reward the quickest, he will strive to get that reward ASAP. The best way to do that is to skip the bite and sit immediately. Once he gets there you are well on your way to success. This point is also where it becomes VITAL you notice when he offers the sit. You must assume when he sits facing you that he is offering the substitute for the bite and you should give a treat and attention (later you can fade out the treat but for a while the treat should still be given even if it means having treats on you at all times). If you do not reward him for doing the sits because you are not paying attention then he will revert back to the last thing that worked which was biting quickly and then sitting. He will feel the only way to get your attention is to first bite. the bites will be quick and the sit will follow immediately but he will still be biting and that is not what you want. For that reason sits must be rewarded when he offers them so that he learns they work better than biting did.

Slowly but surely he will forget about biting and will use the new behavior (sit) to ask for attention. MUCH later you will not have to always give it to him when he asks but I would definitely give in for a long time so he does not feel the need to revert to biting. The attention you grant him for sitting does not have to continue to be very long once the biting is extinguished but it should still be there. If at this point, after the attention is given he continues to ask for more and you do not want to continue giving it you should offer him something else to do such as getting him to play with a toy.

Like Gemp said it is important he does not control you but I also think it is important he learns that sitting for attention works better than biting and the best way to show that it does is to give him very little or no attention for biting and lots every time he sits so you will be doting on him for a while. It is important at this time that you are still firmly in control of everything else. He should not get food when he demands it, should not get play when he demands it and should not go on a walk when he demands it. YOU initiate all these things so even if he begs for play and you want to give it wait until he stops begging and then go play with him. That way he will not think it was him making you play but that you chose to play on your own. For things such as going out to potty you will need to listen to him when he asks to go out because it's important he he tells you this need (or he'll go to the bathroom in your house) so when he asks take him but do something such as making him wait at the door on your way out until you say "go on" or "ok" (or whatever your release word is) so he still realizes you control his access to the outside. Dogs see leaders in those who control resources.


That's how I'd approach it anyway. If you want another way to get him to let go in he first place then have you tried walking towards him and pushing your arm further into his mouth (without talking to or looking at him)? That tends to confuse them as they are so used to people pulling away. It is natural for them to hold on tighter to things being pulled out of their mouth not things being pushed further in. So if that works you can do that instead of letting him sniff the treat but still give a treat and praise when he sits.

also remember that you do not need to use sit as the default behavior. You can have him do any behavior you like to replace the sitting but you want it to be a behavior that you will not find annoying (barking, pawing) and that is very simple, something he knows. that is why sitting works best, almost any dog knows the sit command and it is a natural behavior for them anyway, it also allows then to stay close to you and continue looking at you so they would be more tempted to sit than say, lay down which causes them to move away from you and your face.

I know this post is long but I really hope it helps, if you need me to clarify further I would be happy to.

 

[Maxy24]

I also agree with Gemp as far as training. Even just teaching the basics will give him a sense of leadership and will build a relationship between you. Also make sure he is getting plenty of exercise so he does not keep his energy pent up.

 

[adojrts]

In my opinion this dog needs a Nothing In Life Is Free program.

 

[agnesyoung]

I think that your dog needs to see a good behaviourist. It could be that your dog has got a bit of a nasty habit thats become a bit of an obsession. Ive seen it often in collie type dogs and dogs that tend too be a bit smarter than normal. I may be wrong but you imply that no reward distracts him, could be because the ultimate reward has become the act itself. Personally, because of the nature of the problem my course of action would be 1) to teach the dog tricks, do agility basically any kind of mental/physical stimulation to make the dog calmer, and more focused on you. 2) I would tend to be more aversive i.e water,training discs , citronella collar always under the guidance of a trainer/ behaviourist experienced in these methods, since timing is absolutely vital. I say this because the problem sounds ( i havent seen it so i may be wrong) sufficiently serious enough that eventually it could cause the dog to be euthanised. 3) Use the NILIFF rules.

 

[agnesyoung]

duplicate post deleted