help! any obedience trainers out there?!

[beth2]

I have a 18 month old aussie(conformation,performance bred lines) that is obedience trained and has her cgc....she knows heel position etc...her problem is this: when we are out trail walking where she has to stay on lead...we cannot get her to walk with out pulling even if we say heel. she wont do it. We spend the entire walk correcting her and doing every heel training method we can to correct and remind her where she is to walk...but she will not heel... she wants to be loose for one thing, and second when we are with the whole family (my husband and two kids) she is determined to be up front...she wants to be in control...
this last walk was well over an hour and she would not/could not heel or at least not pull....my husband and I were completely fruestrated with her and she with us Im sure. She would even bark at us when we gave her a leash correction.
she is currently trained on a flat and choke collar. I am afraid if this behaviour continues that she will do damage to her throat due to all the jerking and pulling. Should we have her on a halti or gentle leader or even a prong collar for times like this? She is a great dog, very obedient and loving but she also has a stubborn streak when she wants her way and if allowed could become a dominant type.
any advice out there?

 

[Dekka]

First of all drop the whole myth of becoming dominant because she is young excitable and untrained (yes untrained) good link is... http://dogcentral.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4936120

Many dogs I see in obedience competitions, will pull outside of the ring. A formal heel is very difficult to maintain for long periods.

You said you corrected her, did you reward her (and not just by saying good dog and patting her on the head) when she returned to your side? I would retrain this in your back yard, and clicker train for loose leash walking. Once she was good at it in familiar evirons, then I would take it to the trails.

A halti might stop the pulling (I like the no pull harnesses better) but it won't stop the over all issue.

 

[adojrts]

Agree with Dekka your dog isn't trained, sorry.
Absolutely amazes me when people train for a heel in a ring and then ALLOW the dog not too the second they leave the training area/ring.

Ya see it in classes all the time, people arrive unload the dog, dog pulls them to the ring, in the ring dog goes to the heel position and is great.........class is over, they leave the ring...........dog pulls the owner to the car or to go visit with another dog etc.

Lynn

 

[beth2]

ok, you guys are unfair with making these assumptions. My dog is trained outside of the ring. In fact she hasnt been IN the ring so please dont put me in that category. I get annoyed with "those people" too. LOL. She is first and foremost trained to be and expected to be a well behaved pet, competitor in conformation and agility last. She has been in training from the first day we got her.
secondly, I agree she is young and over zealous, and with that comes continued training. And she does get continued training with positive reinforcement. But she is also very smart and headstrong (stubborn) and she was refusing correction and ignoring reinforcement and praise as stated before because all she wanted was her way. (to be out in front of everyone else) For example: if I were walking her in front of the group we were with she would remain at my side without much reminder and with out pulling....as soon as anyone walked ahead she would start to forge and would literally rebel...even bark at me when I would correct her for pulling. This has always been a challenge for us with her...she has always insisted on being just ever so slightly ahead of heel position. And even when loose and running free in the parks...if we get ahead of her on the trails she will come tearing over and cut us off and then continue on ahead of us. She likes us to be behind her at all times. Im sure her herding instincts are a big factor there. her sister is more laid back and more permissive. She doesnt display this behavior and she has had less obedience training.
Ive been showing and training dogs for 15 years and this is the first dog Ive had this trouble with and this is my first aussie.

Does Anyone have aussies and understand what Im dealing with and how to best work with her? I understand she requires more work in the trails to learn self control while on lead there. She is used to being off leash and free to run. But not all parks allow dogs to be loose so she needs to learn to just walks with us.
So during this training should I switch training equipment? Currently she is on a choke collar...which is ineffective in this case.
Im leaning toward the halti or gentle leader. Im not crazy about prong collars.
I would appreciate any and all experiences you have had and any advice you can give. thanks so much....

 

[Dekka]

Ok if your dog was trained she wouldnt be pulling now would she (and the whole dominance (in relation to humans) thing is a myth, if you have been training for so long I would think you would know that. Did you read the link?) I am sure you have heard of hard to motivate dogs? I don't think dogs are stubborn (thats athropomorphising) just harder to motivate.

I would ditch the corrections (they obviously aren't working anyway) and retrain it with reinforcements. Remember, its what the dogs finds highly rewarding, not what you think should be.

What have your dogs showed in? It would be nice to have more fellow obedience competitors here.

 

[Romy]

Personally I would follow Dekka's advice and work with her on it in a familiar environs first, then slowly introduce her back into the trails where she is having problems.

It may help to take her back there by yourself, as less people leads to less distractions and that will help her concentrate better on you.

Also, she is not listening because the trails and all the smells/animals/etc. right now are way more cool than paying attention to you and any treats you might have. It's even worth strangling herself on a choke for. You need to find a way to make her attention on you be more awesome than trying to drag herself through the woods. You might need to get something awesome like chicken gizzards, or some other really great treat that she'll go nuts for and use it only on the trails when she is doing well.

I would try and do everything possible to avoid having to use a prong collar or a choke. A harness of some kind may be a good choice while you are working with her, since she will have to learn how to walk with it, instead of unlearn the whole pulling on a flat collar or choke. The whole point of taking a dog for a walk in the woods is to have fun with them, and if they are constantly worrying about whether they are doing something that will result in a correction they are not having fun. On the flip side, if you are constantly having your arm ripped out of the socket by an exuberant aussie, you aren't having fun either. Some work on attention training would probably be very beneficial in her case, and effective too as she is an aussie (i'e, "look at me!" *dogs looks* "good girl! *treat*.

Another thing you could do is get a chuck it, and play fetch with her for a good 45 mins or hour before you head out to the trails. If she is already tired and stimulated, it may help her be less distracted as you are retraining her in that environment.

 

[beth2]

romy...thank you!!!!!! I appreciate the encouragement and reminders!!! yes. these things are all things sadly I know but needed the reminder. It was a spir of the moment walk while camping and she wasnt as prepared as I thought she would be...like I said she is used to running free when we are out in the woods at home. So making her walk on lead was NO fun at ALL. normally we would have irristable goodys for her to help reinforce her recalls etc while out in the parks. But we were camping and it wasnt on my mind. Good point.
Going back and training for attention on command is a great idea. I never formally worked her on that command because as a pup she was attentive on her own. So I will definately do that to help her out in these situations.
I agree no prong collar or even a choke on her..she jsut doesnt care to respond to it. have you ever worked with any halter types?
I agree again...going and training her alone in the woods...its been something on the list of "should do's"....we have two young kids and getting to the park alone is difficult...but now I see its nessessary and worth the inconvienence!!
Teaching the attention technique should solve the forging during heel excersizes as well right? Shame on me, I should have remembered that.
thanks again!!!
to answer dekka....I showed in formal obedience years ago with my first performance dog, a cocker. He quickly got his CD in three straight days with high scores...he was a good boy...miya should perform well too...she is eager to please which makes her easly to train. (except when she wants to be first in line that is) LOL. He died early so I hadnt competed for years until we got our aussie...so Im a bit rusty. We are currently preparing for the conformation ring. and my husband and miya are training for agility. Plan to do rally with her too....later on down the line. that looks fun. Rally wasnt around back when I had my cocker.

 

[Doberluv]

Good advice from Dekka as usual and Romy.

The thing is, you need to lose the mindset that is very common that the dog is being stubborn or head strong and "refusing" to comply when she's not in one context, but instead in another where she is undertrained. Dogs do not generalize well. That she can heel in one place or context doesn't mean she is completely trained. She's got a good start, to be sure.

It's not about a dog "understanding" something or having a light bulb go off in their head. They are not logically thinking through it, as in....."Ah-ha. Now I get it." It's about reinforcement. Reinforcement is what drives behavior. She does this, she gets a treat. She does that and something else happens. (operant conditioning) The more she is reinforced for a behavior, the more likely it will be repeated in the future. Plain and simple.

Dogs have a different culture and value system than we do. Dogs are amoral. So "stubborn, willfulness, not listening" is a lot of projecting of human's cognitive abilities on dogs. Studies and experiements, brain analysis (unconvoluted and small) long time experience with experts in canine behavior conclude that dogs, as smart as they are, are not that smart to logically work out all this stuff in great detail in their brains...which would preclue "stubborness," "blowing you off" and all the other excuses for undertraining.

So, if the motivation to do something else is stronger than what you have in supply, she's going to go toward that. It's instinct and drives. It's just the way they are. It would not be advantageous to their survival as animals in the forest if it were not so and the species would become extinct.

She only "understands" where heel is when she's in the ring or other place where she can heel because that is where she's received the most reinforcement. More practice where she is successful and gradually adding in distractions is what she needs. More frequent reinforcement with something she values highly is needed. Most people do not reinforce enough when the dog is still learning.

You are letting her be reinforced for pulling by going with her, allowing her to get what she wants.....to go forward. "Correcting" her doesn't work very well unless it's extraordinarly harsh. Wild canines go through a lot of pain and risk of being impaled by an antler and still go after the deer. I just don't want to be the deer with the "antler" to my dog. LOL.

But positive reinforcement does work....rewarding every step she takes which is where you want her. Set up the environment so she has more odds of succeeding. The more reinforcement you store up, the better she'll learn. (I recommend a loose leash walk, not a formal heel for long spells. There is no earthly reason to make a dog have to concentrate as hard as it takes...for a whole walk in heel position.) Stop walking the instant there's tension in the leash...just as she reaches the end. Make turns, retrace your steps. Mix it up so she doesn't anticipate. When she gives you slack, immediately resume walking and reinforce with not only the walking forward, but a treat to boot. Keep the pea sized treats coming every step, every couple of steps for a long time until she is reliable in several contexts. Then go to a variable reward schedule, but don't be in a rush to get to that point. Be consistant and don't take one more step forward if she pulls.....ever, no matter how long it takes to go 1/2 block. Work in a low distraction area first, where she's likely to succeed and work up.

If you must go into heavy distractions for some reason, get a no pull harness, one that attaches from the front.

Attention training is a very good thing but with my Doberman, I enjoy letting him look around and not pay a great deal of attention to me, but enjoy his outing and still be able to walk without pulling. I also like to be able to ask him to "watch" and have him then, give me eye contact.

Happy training!

 

[beth2]

doberluv, thank you for your response. I understand and mostly agree with your suggestion that dogs cannot be stubborn. ... it was probably a bad choice of wording and description on my part. I guess its my fruestration coming through.
She has been trained and still is trained to loose leash walk in many places including petsmart super centers at their busiest times and outside strip malls etc. and does do well. She actually thrives on the heeling work outs there and doesnt always require food reward. We have never allowed her to get ahead enough to pull and get away with it. The entire time we were on the walk in the woods my husband and I took turns heeling with her because she would not stop pulling when we tried to let her walk on a loose leash. and we were doing all the L and R turns, circles and u-turns and about turns, suprise recalls , even sits and downs etc etc etc to discourage the lunging ahead, trying to get her to focus using as much positive praise as we could muster....but she was not responding and would start barking at us for going in the oposite direction or correcting her... and in the meantime she was trying to keep her eyes on the others with us....who many times were out of sight because we kept having to walk in the opposite direction. I almost wanted to just let her pull this once and try again another time when we would have food etc because we were all so fruestrated. Maybe thats what we should have done. But this wasnt her first experience. And for that reason we didnt let her off the hook. She has been required to "walk nice" at other park like places near water-which is a big love of hers. We require her to walk nice for a while before we let her swim. But like romy said we need to be sure the reward is better than the distraction. So I need to make it a habit to get to the parks more often and work her there and keep it fun so when we arent allowed to take her off leash she can handle/accept it.
so it sounds like its to the parks to work on her loose leash training...she can do it everywhere else just fine.
thanks guys for the encouragement.
any other advice?
Its probably the herding instinct driving her to want to watch the other people with us, and be in front of them all. ei: her family...the friends walking with us at the park....so how do we use that to our advantage and keep her happy and still keep her on a loose leash? will that drive work its self out as she learns more self control with leash work? does that make sense? Never had a herding dog before. Any herding dog people out there?!
When she was a pup we would play hide and seek with her at the parks. and teach her to find each of us by name. We have two small children so Im hoping that will come in handy some day. like lassie finding timmy...LOL.
any other ideas?

 

[otch1]

Hi Beth. I've had herding breeds for years and have many students who complain about this same issue. You've conditioned your young herding breed to be off leash at the park, on trails, playing "find it" with the kids, before she truly knew where "heel" was. Now it's difficult to ask her to maintain a loose lead walk in that same environment while her "charges" are scattering. It's her job, (in her mind) to keep you all in the inner circle and collected. As this is not a place you've required heel work consistently, before she was off leash, it's now a problem. For some dogs there's a bit of anxiety involved when you then leash the dog and some of their people go out of view. You can actually see it, backing and barking, breathing a bit harder, sometimes spinning circles while on lead. You don't have this problem in the stores, malls, public sidewalks, because there she's been conditioned to maintain a loose leash, at all times. As mentioned by another post, lack of focus on her handler is part of the problem. I like a Halti or Gentle Leader for this exercise. When she becomes anxious and forges, practice a circle left, a circle right, then "get it!" Do this with a favorite toy or something she loves to play tug o war with, like a soft rope. She's working in this environment, the park or trails, with just you, not the rest of the family or friends ahead of her as a distraction. Not yet. Really let her use her mouth toy, take hold of the other end and play. The reward of interacting with you and receiving the toy is when she's willing to circle, not when she's moving forward. It's a tight circle to start, to get her to take that toy. When you have her attention, then take the toy, tuck it in your left pocket, ask for a "heel' and attention and move forward. Just a few steps then tight circle right (quickly), pull toy from pocket and toss at her eye level, several feet out while giving command "get it". The key is her never knowing when her toy is going to be tossed, having to maintain heel position to see your left pocket and face in anticipation of the toss. And really letting her mouth her toy as a reward. This is a fun exercise attention for most dogs that are so excited they're difficult to bait and not taking food reward when in public. If you ever get a chance to see Sylvia Bishop teach heel work to her many herding breeds and students, in video, highly recommend buying it. I really enjoyed her workshops, years ago.

 

[beth2]

otch1. Thank you so much...I realized a while back that we should have continued in her leash work at the parks longer and then continued intermittently to keep her practiced up... once she became trustworthly to run loose with us we let the leashwork at the parks slide...and that is my fault. So there is untraining and retraining to do. thank you for the practical help... and the great ideas, and it sounds fun...thats what we need. I appreciate it! awesome. Im all excited to get back into working with her.
I will look into those tapes. thanks.

 

[Jynx]

I have aussies, and while one has been a "self trainer" (love those dogs )
the female was not.

I have also always had herding breeds, and have gsd's as well..Aussies tho are a breed of their own for sure, with a definite mindset of their own too)

Anyhow, my female "could" be a puller when she was younger, but as one pointed out, she was offleash ALOT, on leash wasn't a big issue . When I started doing more onleash stuff with her, well gee she pulled me, even tho she only weighs around 40#, it was like a bull pulling you ..So I stepped back and worked with her onleash,,I find as most dogs,,get to a new situation they are revved up and believe it's only natural they want to be loose, but wow on leash, so they'll pull to get that GREAT 'whatever' that's better than the person on the end of the leash ..

Also when out walking, hiking, if she's onleash, I am not requiring a "heel" position, as long as I'm not being pulled I'm a happy camper, yet when I need that heel position, she's ready to go into it if I ask..

Stepping back, working on her focusing on you, with little distractions then build them up and don't feel because a dog "knows" something, that rewards should be phased out..I continoully reward for good behaviors,,whether it's a treat, verbal, a toy,,whatever,,Aussies are no different in that, you stop rewarding them, they are going to find something else that is self rewarding.

As for collars, I trained my aussies with a flat buckle, I also do agility some conformation/obedience with her..They know the difference going from one thing to the next.

Good luck with her, they can be very independent creatures but also very entertaining.
Diane

 

[Doberluv]

Good posts Otch and Jynx. I have had GSDs and if a bunch of us went hiking, they'd run from the front of the line to the rear and back and forth, making sure everyone was together. My Doberman has incredibly strong herding instincts. When another dog is chasing after a ball, he couldn't care less about the ball. He is dead focused on the other dog and poised in the rear and quickly darts side to side or back to front like a cutting horse watching a cow. LOL. He does the same thing out on a hiking trail....up to the front, back to the rear to make sure everyone is together and all is well.

He started out with the life long dream of winning a gold metal in the Ididerod. He was sure that plenty of practice pulling would get him there. He could pull like a winch can pull a tree out of the ground. So, I'm no stranger to pulling dogs.

What Otch says is so true. Your dog has simply been trained the way she is in that particular context. She just does what seems perfectly correct to her. But it can all be fixed.

My Dobe is very use to runnning loose on hikes in the mountains where I live. He hardly ever is on a leash except for practice or when I go to the city....more practice. But if I put a leash on him on the hiking trails, he'll walk perfectly fine, loose leash or heel because he's had practice in many, many contexts until finally, he is able to apply it in an odd context here and there. (he's almost 4 yrs old and has had a lot of practice) Remember what I said about not generalizing well? Your dog is not applying what she knows to the one context where she isn't good. But once she has had a huge amount of reinfocement in all kinds of places and scenarios, she will be able to apply it better. But for now, you're better off desensatizing her slowly to the area she has trouble with and do like Otch said.

 

[beth2]

thanks guys.
Im not saying that I require miya to walk in heel position all the time. I too beleive a dog can have freedom to walk independantly and take in the sights and smells on lead and not have to pay attention to me all the time....as long as they are not pulling. My other dogs had this priveledge. Unfortunately for miya, she would not stop pulling and when we tried to "reign her in" by having her heel she would not submit...so she lost her privledges. She earns the right to have independance.
Even her breeder and other aussie breeders said to me that aussies are very intellegent and can be hardheaded and will try to challenge authority and do even require a firm hand in correcting at times to gain that respect,...some aussies are more passive, some are more challenging than others. Miya is definately one to challenge authority so we have to keep her "in line" so to speak. She is dominant by nature and challenges us off and on.
Now, I know there are many who dont agree with this perspective...and I will respectfully keep my opinions to myself as far as training goes in this forum if prefered. I am old school. I do believe in the benefit of a firm and fair leash correction and I do believe dogs learn best with positive reinforement...praise, toys, food...whatever their preference. I believe they need to earn their rights and priveleges. I also beleive that there is a hierarchy that needs to be established between a dog and its family.
thanks everyone for your insights and help....I appreciate it.
miya did well yesterday at the park on a flat collar and lead doing her heeling excersizes perfectly. In between short sessions she got to play with her favorite toy and I stuck the toy in my left pocket to help her stay back in heel position better. We had lots of fun. We will continue to take her to other parks where the lure to be free and swim is greater...and work her there too....I will let ya all know how she is doing...someday maybe we will meet up on the trails! And just maybe miya will be walking like an angel on her lead and impress you all!

But I do still have a question: in the meantime while she is learning to control herself on lead and when a regular choke chain isnt working...like that day mentioned: what else do you recommend ...a halti/gentle leader or prong collar? she doesnt respond as nicely to a regular choke chain when distracted...(and it does get caught up in her coat ...which lessons the correction.)...so Im thinking we need a better training tool when its required. I prefer to start with flat collar and if she needs something more in a higher distraction area I will use something else in that situation. what would you recommend? the goal is to be on a regular flat collar or a choke chain someday.

 

[beth2]

jynx, thanks for your response...didnt see ya there. Yah, love the aussies for their entertainment value and versitility. Miya is bundle of fun thats for sure. And she has no trouble going from one venue to another...she is learning agility and beginning her show career in conformation too. She learned her free stack quickly. She even won the herding group at her second match show. That was so fun.
Its amazing how different they are ....her sister is with the breeder...she gets little obedience training and really only goes to shows for her socializing/training...and she is so much calmer and more submissive, etc...miya however, is "over zealous"(the ups guy's description)....a true "wiggle butt" as aussie people call them. LOL
Gotta love em.

 

[beth2]

one more question as Ive been thinking through my strategy for working her at the parks and trails(alone, no family for now). Can I work her awhile (with her toy and good treats) and then once she works on a loose lead for me willingly can I then let her loose to run or swim as a reward? Any negatives to doing it this way? Just short training intervals to start off so she doesnt get overwhelmed, building into longer leash time as she gets better til she can walk the trails without trouble. what 'cha think?

and one more for otch:
when playing the hide and seek game with her as a pup....we originally used it to teach her to keep her close and to come when she was off leash to run. when she would wander out of sight we would hide on her. (I did this with all my dogs with success...escept my beagle cross..she just didnt care LOL.) We then started teaching her to find each of us by name. Are you saying that we cannot play this find it game with her and in the same environment ask her to walk calmly on a leash with us?
I guess Im saying that we want her to have that strong desire to be with and watching over her family but also be under control and to undertand when she is expected to focus on her leashwork and when she is free to focus on her other "family duties" that come with being an aussie. At the shows her family and friends are a big distraction right now so they have to stay out of her sight and not pay her any attention til she is done in the ring.
Im thinking she is smart enough learn the difference between working and play/social time like the service dogs. can that be applied to our life style? Any remarks? Im still trying to work it all out in my mind.
thanks for any help.

 

[Dekka]

Letting her off lead as a reward for some nice loose leash walking is a great idea. I like using life rewards a lot, and most dogs find them more rewarding than a toy or food

 

[beth2]

yah, I agree. thanks I think Im back on the right track....

 

[otch1]

Hi Beth. No, not a problem to play the games you were playing with her. Just mentioned them in reference to then leashing her, having her people scatter or go out of sight and then her becoming distressed, pulling, when she can't get to you or see the person at a distance. It's now a conditioned response. Just as you having to hide at shows is, when she's in the ring and becomes distracted or uncooperative if she sees you and she can't get to you. Keep training in the park, one on one. That's a great start. Recommend you try a Halti if you need added control at the park, for now. The problem with a chain is you're simply irritating your dogs throat and breaking the hair around rough. It really isn't effective. You can use a martingale collar, if you think your dog might slip her buckle collar or a Halti is a problem. Should be able to find them in any large pet store. Good luck!

 

[Furlongs]

Dominance (control) is established in every day & subtle ways. Here is an article that might be helpful: https://0188afd.netsolstores.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=62