Help: 3yo resident Shih Tzu & 7mo new mutt ALWAYS fighting

[phillo]

:yikes:

I recently brought home a roughly 7 month old, 30 lb, male, non neutered mutt. The vets, groomer and friends/family have said he's likely got Australian shepherd, border collie and some pit bull in him. We're calling him Jack. I live with family and they have a 3 year old, 15 lb, male Shih Tzu named Cooper who isn't trained but he's small and pretty well behaved. Cooper doesn't interact with other dogs much except while leashed out and about. Cooper has always been an 'only child'.

From the start Jack and Cooper are very aggressive towards each other. Whenever Jack sees Cooper he tries to engage him in aggressive play, slapping, snapping, trying to mount him, etc. Cooper's not much better and will 'taunt' Jack, barking and snapping, circling. Their tails are always wagging though. I did allow them to 'fight' in our back yard while I observed and it was like a vigorous, friendly wrestling match, not a death match. No growling or yelping, I separated them as soon as I heard a yelp. However, this exercise didn't help and it's very tense in the house. It's been less than 2 weeks since Jack moved in but it feels like 2 years. My family has suggested that 'it might not work out with Jack' but I will live in a tent before I give up on this dog. I'd prefer not to though.

I keep Jack on a leash whenever we're not in the finished basement here, which is basically our den. Jack is pretty well behaved besides trying to chew on everything. Jack does not act aggressively towards other larger or smaller dogs that we meet while leashed. People often remark on how well behaved he is and he's extremely docile with everyone, kid and adult. I've observed him 1 time interacting with another dog off leash, a female pit bull, with no problems except he tried to mount her a couple of times but I stopped it before the pit did. I'll start clicker training with Jack this week and I've begun 'charging' the clicker to prep him. I'm not working now and I have as much time as I need to deal with the home situation, and I even have a full time helper. Any and all suggestions are VERY much appreciated.

 

[Maxy24]

From the sounds of it, it's not real fighting but very rough play. If you could get a video of the behavior it might help us. Exactly what behavior did you see during the "fight" you observed? Did either dog grab on and not let go, did anyone hold onto the other dog and shake their head? Was their chasing? If so was one dog in particular always the one being chased or did they take turns? Was their any play bowing or did one dog always hold his body high and stiff? During this "fight" did either dog tuck his tail, slink around low to the ground, etc.? hearing more about the interaction can help us determine if either dog is in real danger or we just have some dogs with poor social skills who need to learn how to play.
Many pit bulls play roughly, it's just their style, I'd say that he will learn to be gentler with proper feedback from Cooper and you if Jack ignores Cooper's warnings (have Jack on a long leash (not a retractable though or a dog might get rope burn) and let them play, if cooper tells Jack to stop a few times and Jack ignores use the leash to move Jack away from Copper).

Explain to me more about what sort of tense feelings they seem to have in the house. Is Cooper tense because Jack won't leave him alone? When Jack goes up to Cooper how does Cooper react (body language and any vocalizations).

It's very good you are keeping Jack leashed in the house, that way Cooper can easily get away if he wants to. For further security for Cooper it might be a good idea to have a room that he can get into but Jack can't ( some gates have small doors, usually for cats but a small dog might fit or you can get a regular gate but attach it higher in the doorway so that Cooper can get under but Jack cannot).

But from the sounds of it I really think Jack just has no idea how to play properly, especially with small dogs. So surely wouldn't be thinking about getting rid of him just yet.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Well, there are several possibilities here:

1. The dogs are not "fighting," but are just playing roughly. Some dogs like to play rough, and while you can teach them not to play so rough, that does take a lot of consistency and work. Also, rough play can quickly turn into a fight; like, one dog accidently hurts the other dog, and the hurt dog takes it personally and a fight starts. Considering that Jack is an adolescent (under a year old) and intact, this makes it more possible that they are just playing rough.

2. The dogs ARE fighting and should not come into contact with each other. Wagging tails absolutely do NOT mean that the dogs are happy; in fact, one type of wagging tail (tail held very high, and wagging back and forth quickly) usually means that the dogs will be aggressive. Considering that Jack is possibly a pit mix (pits often are not good with other dogs), and considering that Cooper has never played with other dogs off leash, there is a good possibility that the dogs are in fact fighting.

3. The dogs are frustrated at not being able to interract and the frustration comes across as aggression. This is especially possible if the dogs often see or hear each other, but do not get to come into contact with each other. If this is the case, continuing to let them see or hear each other while keeping them apart will only build more frustration and the problem will get worse.


I'm telling you all this because basically, it's extremely difficult - if not impossible - to be able to tell if two dogs are interracting appropriately without actually being able to see the dogs in person. I would suggest keeping the dogs separate in the house - not letting them see or hear each other - until you can get a grasp on their intentions. Meanwhile, give them both a lot of extra physical and mental stimulation (do training sessions with BOTH dogs, increase the exercise for BOTH dogs).

You can then introduce them slowly. I just found this awesome series of videos on youtube. It's quite long, so if you don't want to sit through the whole thing you can just fast forward. Good luck!

 

[phillo]

First off, thanks for these detailed responses. Lizzybeth, thanks for the youtube link, I'll definitely watch it. I shot some footage of the dogs playing/fighting. I started taping about 2 minutes into it and I cut it short when Cooper started really freaking out (it seemed to me). Afterwards I took them for a walk together and there was 0 aggression for the duration.

Maxy, thanks for your great questions, my answers are below:

Exactly what behavior did you see during the "fight" you observed?

Check out the video, they've been allowed to duke it out on 3 occasions (including the video) and it's been similar each time.

Did either dog grab on and not let go, did anyone hold onto the other dog and shake their head?

No, Jack grabbed Coopers ears a lot, but he'd let go pretty quickly.

Was their chasing? If so was one dog in particular always the one being chased or did they take turns?

When they were chasing, Jack would chase Cooper. If Jack would stop, Cooper would move towards him, not away.

Was their any play bowing or did one dog always hold his body high and stiff?

I don't know what the term 'play bowing' means? Neither dog held their body high and stiff throughout.

During this "fight" did either dog tuck his tail, slink around low to the ground, etc.?

No, I didn't see any of this behavior.

Thanks again for the responses. If you have time, check out the video. The quality isn't the greatest but it represents the behavior. There are a couple of things, first, does anyone see danger here? Will Jack attack Cooper? Secondly, it's ok if they play fight once in awhile, but it's constant, what can we do to minimize this behavior? Oh, and Maxy, Cooper has lots of Jack free spaces in the house.

 

[CaliTerp07]

That video is alllll play to me! Neither of them is forcing the other into it--both initiate playfully, so it looks to me like they're both enjoying it.

Play bowing is when the front half of the body is on the ground, but the back half is still up. Your dogs do it a lot in the video. It's a very playful, "I'm ready, let's go!" type movement to another dog.

The barking by Cooper at the end is something Lucy does all the time to other dogs at the dog park. In my experience, it means "Hey, why did you stop? Keep playing/running/whatever you were doing before"

I wouldn't leave the two dogs alone for a while (I wouldn't leave ANY two dogs who I wasn't 100% comfortable around alone), but so long as you're around and able to monitor it, I think you're fine

 

[CaliTerp07]

Secondly, it's ok if they play fight once in awhile, but it's constant, what can we do to minimize this behavior?

EXERCISE! A tired dog isn't going to want to wrestle and jump around! Even just mental exercise will help (and that can be anything--practicing training, going on a car ride, making them eat their dinners out of toys that make them think, etc)

Also, could you designate a play area and a non-play area? I live in a tiny apartment, so it's not as easy, but if you have a big enough house, or a fenced yard, you could make certain rooms okay, and others off-limits.

 

[Maxy24]

I agree that looks like all play to me, I have no volume on this computer, my other one having problems, but based on their body language and what you've told me all looks well. Cooper did seem bothered at the point where he ran to the stairs but once they were back on the ground again he started playing and there was play bowing from Cooper. So I wouldn't worry about that behavior, it is normal play in my opinion. If Cooper quits the game and completely stops trying to interact with Jack (like when he ran to the stairs, presumably to get some protection from you) but Jack won't leave him alone that is the only time I would step in and remove Jack (or if he humps, dogs tend not to appreciate humping). Otherwise they look like they are having a good time

I agree that more exercise and mental stimulation (the clicker training would work well and if you want to do any tracking stuff in the backyard that would help) could help to stop Jack from being so annoying all the time towards Cooper. Rotate his toys so that he gets a "new" group of toys every week or two, this will keep them more interesting to Jack. Buy some toys that you can fill with food so that when Cooper is done playing with Jack but Jack still wants more you can give those toys to occupy him and start to calm him down.

Both dogs are adorable by the way!

 

[johndecker]

i guess these are the times where dog plays around.. nothing really serious....

 

[lizzybeth727]

Oh yeah, definately play... and not even terribly rough play, IMO. Enjoy your dogs!!

 

[babymomma]

LOL.. You wouldnt like my dogs then! Actually in my video Its very mild play, They are alot rougher at first and they had been walked for 1 hour and 30 minutes before they started playing..

And the German shep x lab is NINE!

Sometimes they sound like they are going to kill each other, But they both love it!

play time!

 

[Doberluv]

They're adorable and just having a great time. Pure, unadulterated fun. Just let them be. You don't need to have a leash attached. It is definitely mild compared to the way my dogs play. They're loud, wild, rough and make horrible snarly, growly noises. You'd be shocked. But it's all play. That play bow, those jerky stops and freezes, butts up in the air....then bouncing around again. Plus, their whole faces are smiling. LOL.

 

[Doberluv]

Babymomma, they're so cute. Phillo....notice in Babymomma's video how the little one, Keely, when she's needing a time out will stop and lie down still for a moment and Kacee will respect that and wait for her to make the next move. They have their own little signs they give each other.

(I love it when I'm someplace else where I get a break from dial up and get to see videos. Yeah!)

 

[phillo]

Thanks a lot for checking out the video and letting us know that it's just play we're seeing. They get a lot rougher than what's shown in that particular video, but I know the danger signs to watch out for. Letting them interact more has actually alleviated the problem behavior AND it tires them out too. I just wanted to make sure that my rescued tough guy mutt wasn't going to maul our little pure bred Shih Tzu - I don't think that'll happen.

I'm psyched this forum is here, I'm going to have more dog questions and you guys have been really helpful. Thanks. Also, Erin you mentioned 'tracking games' in the backyard, that sounds interesting. I'll do some web searching but if anyone has a link to some info on that, it'd be great.

Thanks!

Phil (and Jack)

 

[Doberluv]

I just wanted to make sure that my rescued tough guy mutt wasn't going to maul our little pure bred Shih Tzu - I don't think that'll happen.

It looks like the big guy is being careful of the little one. I have a big girl mix and two Chihuahuas. The boy Chi and the bigger mix play very roughly or so it appears. Jose` makes these awful, squealing noises like he's being hurt but he isn't. It's all part of his vocalization repertoire. lol. He goes in for more and gets after her. Anyhow, it all looks wild and rough, but they know what they're doing. And she is careful of him and knows he's smaller and more vulnerable. When I had my Doberman, Lyric (85 to 90 lbs) he loved Chuli, my 5 lbs Chihuahua and he would play with her The difference in size was huge and when he was a new pup, I did have to be careful and really supervise in case he could hurt her by accident. But over a few months he learned to be careful and she'd bite him on the face and he'd get her head in his mouth. They had a wee of a time. (as you can see in my avatar)

 

[Doberluv]

Hey, this was on another thread. It might be a fantastic thing for you.



Blue Dog Training & Behavior Madison, Wisconsin

 

[phillo]

Hey Carrie thanks for the link, ton of info. Just to give an update, Jack is totally off the leash in the house and his behavior has completely changed - he's super calm and really well behaved. It's funny because now Cooper is like infatuated with him - always wants to play, he'll even sit and watch Jack sleep. You guys really helped alleviate our fears and we now have 2 very content dogs.

 

[Doberluv]

Great news. They are really lovely dogs. It's so nice that they're such good buddies.

Now....now that you're all confident, here's a word of warning. It's not meant to burst your bubble, make you paranoid or to drag you down, but just something to watch and be aware of. When your pup gets to be around 18 months, give or take, he will be coming into maturity and sometimes two same sex dogs will start having some problems. Since the difference in size between the two is great, be really careful when you leave them alone together. Notice what things, if any seem to be a trigger for any snarkiness....like a favorite toy or food...whatever.

I also recommend that you add in a little extra conditioning strength. It's not the end all AT ALL but....you might make sure all the best things happen when they're together and when they're not together, it's kind of boring. (expect for those times when you want to have quality, one on one time with one or the other of them) In other words, the best toys, the best affection, the best food, the best fun happens when they're together. However, when alone and you're not able to supervise, I'd be careful not to leave high value toys or food around. Don't give them a reason to fight.

Anyhow, those are some half formed thoughts (lol) that come to mind when the pup gets older. You may never have any problems with squabbles. And then again, you might. "Life is like a box of chocolates." LOL.