Hello from Canada!!

Discussion in 'Member Introductions' started by avaloncoolies, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    This was a bit of a witch hunt from start to finish from ALL sides. There's no innocent party here.

    What a shame another person has been driven off, and in their own introduction thread...!

    Pretty sure she could have contributed a lot.
     
  2. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    Well **** it, you caught me. I thought I'd get her to spill EVERYTHING by... helping her uploading pictures. Yep.

     
  3. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    And tbe hypocrisy is one breeder is off Scot free because they're old and won't change their ways (and you can hardly grill someone you've bought several dogs off right?), yet Avalon is grilled just cos. When tgeyve already said they hold her in high regard. Doesn't make sense to me.

    So Avalon cant call them young, but Richie gets away with blue murder because he's an old rancher?

    Eh?
     
  4. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Why is everything always about you?
     
  5. SevenSins

    SevenSins Guest

    My guess is that it's because you made a blanket statement about everyone who posted in this thread and Jess can only speak as/for herself?
     
  6. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Not everyone, just didn't single any one person out. Just feels a bit off... Like Richie koolies are bad, but hey we can breed from them... And Avalon we like except they don't test but can't breed from so that's really bad.

    And the that it was said they won't question him because he's set in his ways, but Avalon is set in her ways ans that's bad?

    This person isn't here to defend themselves either way, but surely we can't drive one person off for their choices if we can all choose to do what we want anyway (ie get any dog from any source?)?

    Just really don't get how its ok for one but not another?
     
  7. Sit Stay

    Sit Stay Not a Border Collie

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    Avalon was asked politely and in a concise way by neutral parties why she would X-ray but not go the next step and certify. Understandable - the xraying tends to be the expensive part and certifying does have its benefits. A couple people may have mentioned that she may be losing out on puppy buyers because of this, which is another very valid point. If she had answered these questions head on with good grammar and sentence structure, I dont think this thread would be 20 pages of finger pointing and crying. I do think she has valuable knowledge and experience. Instead, Avalon tip toed around any politely asked questions and played the "woe is me!" "I'm being attacked" card. If that was being "attacked" I'd hate to approach her about a problem with a puppy, etc. That was nothing.

    Linds' breeder has been hashed out on here in the past. On different occasions even of I recall correctly. I think Linds knows that he is controversial and that some people disagree with her breeder choice and they would not make the same. The difference is he is not on Chazhound and Avalon was/is, so naturally people are curious about what is standard with the breed and why certain things are not done (like health testing).

    Good riddance, in my opinion, if she ever does leave. To be so angry with young girls over hearsay and rumors is so cowardly and stupid. Avalon is digging her own grave here with this attitude and serious lack of tact. There is a chance my mom will get a Koolie for her next dog - do you think we will revisit Shawn's dogs now? No chance! Having a good relationship, built on trust, with a breeder is important for us. This "rancher" (acreage and miniature horses?) just made herself look incredibly unstable and close minded.

    I just feel that we are lucky enough to have three polite, helpful Koolie owners on here. From the sounds of it they are slim pickings in some of the Koolie circles!
     
  8. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Ok, thanks for explaining to me.... I still don't get it, but I can see why you are angry at least on your part.


    One thing, sentence structure and grammar don't come naturally to everyone.. You can't judge someone on that. That's a bit unfair! I usually type on my phone for example, so don't spend time on how I'm writing, and others just suck at grammar... I hate grammar for one. Couldn't tell you what a semi colon is if you pointed one out to me.
     
  9. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    I was one of the first people to ask the question back on page five and it was a genuine question. Not a demand to health test but an true inquiry as to why one would go through the expense and time of X-rays then not take the relatively small, but important to a breed's development, step of recording the results with some objective and public agency.

    I think it's frustrating to many people here (who are not in any way involved in the Koolie "controversy") to have an established breeder of Koolies on the forum and think, at last we can find out why Koolie breeders don't health test! Not second-hand information but straight from one of the sources! And then be playing in a house of mirrors with constant deflections and distractions and accusations of agendas instead of a straight answer, and then when the straight answer comes (cost and time) it doesn't really make sense since most of both the cost and the time are already being expended, according to our own experiences with having hip rads done. The question regarding eye tests and such (being a collie breed) was, to my knowledge, never addressed at all.

    I really don't think it's a double-standard beyond all of this already being hashed out with Linds and SaraB regarding their breeder choice and no one really wanting to get back into it. People understand their choice or don't, or vehemently disagree with their choice, but in general I think folks understand it because they answered straight. As a contrast to this thread, where pulling an answer out of all the unsubstantiated claims and other unrelated drama was downright difficult.

    Chazzers tend to care about and be knowledgeable about dogs in general. Koolies tend to incite special interest because they seem to be a breed that would fit so many of us very well...but there are so many unknowns and skeletons in closets that it's hard to justify actually taking that step especially for those of us who are involved in any sort of strenuous activity with out dogs and want to stack the odds as best we can.

    As we've seen many times on this forum, no matter how knowledgeable a person is, their contribution will always be limited by their ability and willingness to engage in respectful open discussion. The respect may have been lacking as this thread devolved and people became frustrated, but to say it was a witch hunt from start to finish is rather exaggerated. I know several of us (Aleron, Laurelin, myself, etc.) did try to remain polite and just get answers and discuss, but those answers were not forthcoming.
     
  10. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

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    What Shai said.

    I was watching the thread from the get go, and tbh, was hoping Avalon would bring another dimension to the C/Koolie population on the board. She's very correct that we are only seeing Koolies from one breeder and thus may not be getting the full picture of the breed as a whole and with the heavy Koolie-want on Chaz recently, different perspectives are always a good thing.

    When she started acting evasive and defensive, I initially brushed it off as part of the C/Koolie faction issues, but when it continued despite additional information provided on the costs of OFA'ing xrays already taken and escalated to her deriding Linds and Sara on something as ridiculous as age, she lost me and really has made me wonder if she's truly hiding some things.
     
  11. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Pretty much this. I also don't have a horse in this race, and while I considered C/Koolies before, I can also now say I definitely won't be going to Avalon if/when the time comes. Just the way it is. Show your ass on a forum, can't debate properly, ect and that's it for you. I don't care about the most stellar breeding practices in the world (let alone substandard), if you're not a nice person, it's not happening.

    Every single breeder on Chaz has been questioned intensively. Those that passed muster are left alone. Even some who don't do certain things but have a reason (a REAL VALID one) are left alone for the most part. It's how things work here.

    Having a hissy fit over certifications is ridiculous, especially considering you *say* you x-ray. I think that's probably a big fat lie myself because who goes to the trouble to pay for x-rays and then doesn't pay the 40 dollars to submit them? Or are you saying your vet is magical and can "see" the hips without taking an xray? Because that's even dumber.

    This whole thread from Avalons side has been ridiculous and a slander/name calling fest.

    And as far as what this other breeder in Aus is doing, she's obviously setting up a strawman. Richie (apparently) is coming under fire for the same things she is, only he's not even here to defend himself. Culling of puppies and dogs on chains is pretty standard practice if you're an actual working rancher, and it sounds like he is, plus he's 70. Avalon is 33 by her own admission. I know I wouldn't be asking my 70 year old grandmother to change ANYTHING she did, because obviously that's what's working for her (and she'd probably tell me whatever I was doing was stupid anyway)

    The whole thing is ridiculous.
     
  12. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Who's letting anyone get away with blue murder? The merle-merle thing and culling puppies have been hashed out before. If Richie were here I'm sure people would be asking him some pretty harsh questions... but he's not. It appears to me that Sara and Linds want to do better in the future... but they have to work with what is already existing.

    Also, much of my problem comes from how Avalon has apparently made her judgments via some Mulderesque leaps of logic about Linds and Sara's motivations and knowledge in this breed based on misinformation/miscommunication (at best) or lies and half-truths (at worst), responds to questions with deflection, dismissal, and personal attacks, and has yet to provide any proof of her accusations against Linds in particular.
     
  13. Sit Stay

    Sit Stay Not a Border Collie

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    That was my interpretation, anyways, Dizzy! We are of course all free to draw our own :)

    I don't expect everyone to write like an English major but paragraphs, proper sentence structure etc is appreciated when you're trying to come across as an experienced, knowledgeable person. You're right though, it does not come naturally or easily to everyone!

    (I think you write well, by the way!)
     
  14. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Frankly, I get the impression that Shawn knew Sara and Lindsey were here. I get the impression she thought she could "expose" them, and present herself as the OMG ultimate Koolie expert, and that Chaz would more or less fall a her feet.

    The stuff she's saying is entirely fabricated, regarding her coorespondence with them. And I think that says a lot right there.

    I don't buy that she just innocently wandered by because she heard people on here like Koolies. Sorry. I think she had a mission that didn't go as planned and now she's pitching a fit.

    All that said, Shawn, as transparent as I find your motives for being here, if you were to dust yourself off and behave like a gracious adult from this point forward, the forum would likely accept you. It's that kind of a place.
     
  15. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    What Emily said, totally.

    If you are a breeder, you are making choices about what direction to take your breeding program, what dogs to use, etc. These are your choices to make and your choice to do as you see fit. If you aren't health testing, just said "I don't health test and this is why..." when asked. I can respect someone who makes choices, sticks by their choices and is totally upfront and honest about them. Even if they aren't choices I would make or agree with. I can respect that they are at least honest and that they have their reasons for what they do. To me, honesty is huge when it comes to breeders. I think a lot of others feel that way too.

    OTOH I personally find it really shady when a breeder makes choices and then when asked about those choices isn't able to be totally honest about them, tries to change the subject or gets really defensive. To me, that makes it seem as though the breeder themselves thinks they aren't doing the right thing. If you're going to do something, do it and be totally open about it. If you can't be totally open about it, you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

    No one said breeders who post here have to health test or have to follow certain standards. But be honest and upfront, don't try to turn questions directed at your practices into "Look! Look what these other people do! They're worse than me!". Again, that just makes it seem as though you don't believe you are doing the right thing. And if you don't believe you are doing the right thing, how is anyone supposed to respect you as a breeder?

    And I thought this could use repeating.
     
  16. MandyPug

    MandyPug Sport Model Pug

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    I'm curious if anyone else has noticed that things were relatively peaceful until a member who has not been very interested in Koolies or even terribly strict about their health testing views was the one to initially pose the question? Or the fact that the person who posed the question has not been back to reply at all in this thread?

    I'm honestly curious if anyone else has noticed this because it stands out to me.
     
  17. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    I didn't notice, to be honest, probably because I don't know everyone's stance on health testing and related topics. That said, I don't think anyone is claiming that Avalon was the only person to be shown in a...less than positive light in this drama. Drama is rarely so precise.
     
  18. Lyzelle

    Lyzelle New Member

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    I've been reading. I don't know much about C/Koolies so I don't have much to add. I just listen and learn. I stated in another thread I was interested in the breed, but it depends entirely on what Linds and Sara do with the breed. Because I can't jump on the no health testing and merle to merle train. Although I am having similar issues in my own breed, thus why I am trying to find another. But obviously learning anything from Avalon was a bust.
     
  19. eddieq

    eddieq Silence! I ban you! Staff Member

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    I can't believe that I have to do this in an INTRO thread, but here it is.

    If you (ubiquitous "you") have an issue with another member, take it to PM or off the board. Nothing wrong with differing opinions and even outright dislike of each other. Everyone has been fairly respectful in this thread and we appreciate that.

    As far as accusations being thrown around - provide evidence or keep it to yourself. That goes for everybody.

    Thanks!
     
  20. Kootenay

    Kootenay Active Member

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    I didn't get all the way through this thread, what a headache... just popping in here to say that I have spent a great deal of time with an Avalon Coolie (he belongs to my best friend and I do "daycare" for him when she works, so he's basically like my 3rd dog) and he is a FANTASTIC dog! He is nearly silent (like really, hardly ever barks, though he has a lovely "rooo" that he does), not at ALL a nutcase, in fact he is generally very mellow and cuddly. He can absolutely turn on his drive when training or out and about, but he is a very sane dog. It seemed like some people here were accusing Shawn of false advertising, but from my experience with the pup from her, he's exactly as she says her dogs are. Just had to say it!
     

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