Hello Everyone.

[Gisella]

My name is Gisella I am the proud mommy of 4 (human) sons, ages 1,2,7,9 and two (human) stepsons 9 and 13. I also have 4 four-legged children, Oscar a 17 month old Fila, Fat Girl an 8 yr old pitbull terrior, Buddy a 22 month old English mastiff/Bull mastiff mix and then there's Jack a 1 year old black house cat,but don't tell him that, he thinks he's a dog. (In fact, I think he thinks he is a Fila)

I just found this forum and I am actually looking for some good Fila advice. While Oscar is a loving, loyal, protective, well trained dog, he really loathes my stepsons. When they come visit for the weekend, the dog has to be crated, put into my room, kept on a leash at my side or outside. Keeping them seperated has worked for a year, but last Thursday, my 13 yr old stepson Vinnie, jumped over a railing that seperates Oscars outside area,he landed right in front of the dog,the dog bit his arm.

Vinnie yelled at Oscar and told him to go lay down, Oscar immediatley let go of his arm and did as he was told. vinnie came in and told me that Oscar had bitten him, the bite was bad, tore the "fatty tissue" (he is a bit chubby) and my reaction was worse than the childs (who was actually quite calm), I started yelling for my husband and crying hysterically, my husband went outside and punched Oscar. Which made me cry more, I love my boy and my dog and do not want to see either of them hurt.

The child needed 200 stitches and 20 staples. My husband wanted the dog put down, which for me was not an option, the vet is not willing to put him down.

My children, including the one that was bitten, do not want the dog put down. Nor do they want me to put him into rescue to be rehomed.

My question is if a Fila can be rehomed and bond with a stranger,which he has a natural hatred for, is it possible that Oscar can still bond with my stepchildren.

Since the biting incident, Oscar has not so much as given a dirty look to either of my step kids. Infact he has been nicer to them. Before the bite, when the boys would walk into my bedroom, Oscar would be acting like a lunatic,lunging at them through his crate,now when they come in, he doesn't behave rudely.

Vinnie and Nicholas (my stepsons) are determined to bond with Oscar. They really do love him and think he is a great dog. I would never "shove them down the dogs throat", I think it is possible to introduce them slowly like we did when we had the baby.

My top priority is to make sure ALL members of my family are safe (including Oscar).

Before anyone ask, yes Oscar is wonderful with my 4 children, he is ok with the cat (by ok, I mean afraid and stays away from)he is docile off of our property, but very protective of our home, he is well behaved at the vet, and at the groomer. He is not a "killer" type Fila, that goes after anything that moves anywhere he is. He has an excellent temperment, is patient and loving and kind to me, my 4 sons that live here fulltime, my father and mother, my father in-law, and my best friend.

 

[Gisella]

This is a picture of Oscar right before his first birthday with my son Isiah, right before his second birthday.

 

[lizzybeth727]

First of all, welcome to chaz!

Second of all, I'm terribly sorry about your dog biting your stepson. 200 stiches plus 20 staples makes this an EXTREMELY serious bite, and it sounds like you are taking this extremely seriously; I hope you continue to do so.

We have a few excellent Fila owners on this forum, and I'm sure they'll chime in here to help you out. I did notice another post you made in the Training forum, and I just wanted to repost it here:

I own a brazilian mastiff ( Fila) He acted the same way,only he was younger, I hired an animal behaviorist to train him when he was 12 weeks old. And I will admit, I was horrified by how she handled my puppy, I wanted to take him and run. He refused to behave on a leash, she put a "prong collar" on him, and when he refused to walk, she drug him, when he bit her, she pulled up on his leash until he stopped the behavior, when he did walk for her, if he was getting "rude" ( ie, pulling, chewing the leash, running etc ), she tugged the leash and told him "HEEL" in a firm voice,when she stopped moving and told him to "sit", if he refused she tugged the leash (which tightens the prong collar) until he sat. Then she would give him a simple " good " and a pat on the head. After 20 minutes of this she handed me his leash and wanted me to do what she had just done,I was horrified ,and almost in tears, but I did it anyway-then she told me that with any dog, especially an aggressive dog or a Guardian Type breed, the only way the animal will respect you is if you completely dominate him. Not by abusing him, but by letting him know in no uncertain terms, that you are the only thing that stands between him and death and making him aware that at any moment you can end his life. I was horrified, but at the end of that one hour training session, my 12 week old puppy would not even so much as pee without me giving him permission. I never have had to raise my voice to him, he is now 17 months old and is 125 pounds and walks like a champion show dog on a leash, my 9 year old son can walk him on a leash without a problem,he is polite at the vet, the groomer, the flea market, all the places I was told I could never bring him to because of the breed, he can go without incident and without a muzzle,he is a wonderful animal, and it is because I showed him I am in charge. If it weren't for my trainer giving me that advice, I have no doubt that my dog would have been an out of control lunatic and would have probably already been put down.

I'm a little confused about how you're comfortable with taking him into public, knowing that he has inflicted an extremely serious bite on a child.

The problem with using serious punishment methods to stop behaviors in a puppy - which I do think is very relevant considering that this was your advice to another member who had a similar puppy - is that they don't teach the dog what TO do. Teaching a puppy that mouthing is absolutely, without doubt going to get him in MAJOR trouble WILL teach him not to put his mouth on people in general. But there are going to be times when the dog is startled, sick, irritated, or in whatever other way not feeling like himself, when he will feel the need to bite somebody. Biting, to dogs, is language, it's part of how they express themselves. But if they went around causing this much damage to each other, they wouldn't be around long.

That's why bite inhibition training - which was mentioned in that thread above your post - is so important. This teaches puppies how hard to mouthe, to control their mouthes. Once they grow out of the puppy stage they won't mouthe since they will be done teething (12-week olds are little alligators!), but bite inhibition is what they will remember for times like this when, for whatever reason, they feel the need to bite. A dog that bites hard enough to cause that much damage, has no bite inhibition; this is a very dangerous dog.

He's dangerous because there is going to be some more times in his life that he will feel the need to bite somebody. I was working with a dog the other day, a dog I've been working with for nearly two years, who I would trust with any person, child, or other dog. She's having allergies and is a little cranky in general right now, and on top of that I gave her a strong dose of benadryl, which made her a little groggy. She was daydreaming, and I tapped her ear to get her attention; she turned around and bit my hand (not mouthed, BIT). She was cranky and groggy, I startled her, and she literally didn't know what she was doing. She has never put her teeth on me before at all, so I am very lucky that somewhere in her first year of life before I met her, someone taught her bite inhibition, as I came away from the bite without even a bruise.

The trouble is, you will not know what might trigger your dog to bite (I had no clue my dog would bite me when I simply tapped her ear!) until it's too late. In my case, too late meant that my hand hurt for about 10 seconds. In your case, too late means hundreds of stiches, or worse. You have a very dangerous dog.

I would suggest finding a good behaviorist (definately NOT the one you had before!). Make sure it's a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist.... Anybody can call themselves a behaviorist, but CAABs go through a certification process that actually makes the title mean something. They will be pricy, but if you want to keep your dog, IMO, this is your ONLY option.

 

[Gisella]

Oscar has been socialized since I picked him up from the airport. He does not act aggressively outside of our home,property or the car. He never has. I feel comfortable because I trust that my animal trust me and he reads me for his cues, like any other well trained animal, if I am relaxed he is too, if I am anxious, he is too, a fila is not your average dog, Oscar is a complete mirror of my emtions and feelings. He has never gone after, growled at or made any aggressive gestures (tail, posture,"hairy eyeball") at anyone that was not on our property. His vet loves him and calls him a "friendly fila", she has one Fila patient,that has to be sedated and muzzled, and his own owners are afraid of him. I will now be more careful and even more watchful, because he has now bitten someone, and I take that very seriously, for Oscars safety as well as the safety of people around him. I can not however keep him locked up in the house because he will then believe that all strangers are bad and a threat and that makes him more dangerous.


I do not believe his trainer made him anything but an excellent dog. He is very docile in public and an aggressive protector of his property and family at home, that is his purpose in life, it is what he was bred to do.This can not be trained out of him, it is his lifes work that he is more than happy to do it because he loves his family,and is loyal to his master.

He did not just have one session with her, he was extensively trained 2x a week until he was 8 months old, then once a week until he was 15 months old,only on that first day did she handle him roughly and only in response to him trying to handle her roughly. After the first session, he was never rude to her again and he was all wags and kisses every session after that. His training did not stop when I could no longer afford it, I still work with him at home and make sure he is "polite" when we are not at home. I do not ever underestimate him. His trainer is a Certified Animal Behaviorist and as a PHD in animal science and animal behavior. She is a highly educated woman. She also trains horses, and works with wild horses, to tame them. I did not hire the first person I met, infact I interviewed many trainers, PRIOR to even getting oscar,Oscars mom was still pregnant with him when I picked my trainer, once he was born and I got his shipping date I then and set is training up to begin at exactly 12 weeks.





Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my thread, I am guessing that since you were "working with a dog" you are an CAAB, and I do take your advice seriously, do you think Oscar is still young enough for "Bite Inhibition" training to work? I do not believe the whole "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" my old girl is always learning something new.

My next question is, how would he be taught this "Bite Inhibition" if he doesn't bite, that is the thing, not since he was a nippy bossy puppy, with the exception of this incident, has he ever bit anyone, or even tried to, he wont even play Tug of War with the other dogs,nor does he bite or mouthe them, not even playing,how would he be taught to control his bite, without being given the opportunity to bite, and since the only place he is aggressive is at home, it would be absolutely terrible of me if I brought someone here, with the intention to "bait" him into biting someone,which I would never do espcially since I have seen what a "frightened reactive bite" from him can do.

I will definitley look into this, and see if maybe this is something that I myself can do with him at home. Thank you again.

 

[Gisella]

Just to add, Oscar also really does not have any Alpha tendencies, our female Pitbull Terrior is definitely the boss of the two male dogs in this house and she falls into "rank" right under the humans. Jack (the cat)would come in right under the female, Buddy the English/Bull Mastiff mix, and then Oscar, and Oscar was here before the cat and before Buddy, and has no problem with being last in line for the throne, he is just a happy dog in general and has never even "challenged" the other animals for Alpha roll. He is just happy to be our dog and lay with the babies at nap time, and go for walks with me and my 9 yr old son. I do not have to use food, treats, or anything except a pat on the head and a "good boy" for Oscar to be obidient. I do not feel, (nor does the vet, or the doctor that stitched my boys arm) that Oscar realized he bit Vinnie to begin with, and that is why he immediatley let go when Vinnie yelled at him and told him to lay down. Oscar could have easily kept biting, refused to back off etc. And whether or not it sounds stupid, I do believe that Oscar knows he did something bad, and feels bad for doing it. He has not forgotten that he hurt my child. I would like to see them become friends. The vet assures me that it is a myth that once a dog taste blood he'll be blood thirsty, and all the other crazy stuff people keep saying. I was attacked by a Chow when I was 10, he bit my stomach, resulting in 40 stitches,he bit me on my butt, resulting in 100 stitches, he bit my hand resulting in 10 stitches, he chased me up a tree, a branch snapped and I fell breaking my elbow, my wrist, my ankle, 3 ribs and my nose, the dog was about to bite me in the face when one of the neighbors came out and was going to shoot it, I saw the gun and started crying because I did not want the dog shot, the owner of the dog came out and got him, called my mom and an ambulance,my mother wanted the animal put down, I did not, I was the second child he had bitten. I ended up being great friends with that dog. It took a while, and he was on a leash, for a month I just sat next to him outside doing my homework, reading, not even speaking to him ( I was badly injured and couldn't go to school for a month)eventually he started wanting my attention, so his owner would walk him a little closer to me everyday. The woman that owned him explained to me that he did not bite me because he was mean, he bit me because I was a stranger and I came into his yard and scarred him,he knew I was not invited and it was his job to make sure I did not get into the house, he was protecting her. Once he and I became friends, I could go into her yard and walk him, or plant flowers with her, or lay in the hammock and read and the dog would lay in it with me,whether she was there or not. I do not believe that Oscar can not form a relationship with my stepsons, I just need someone who is experienced with the breed to give me advice on what the best way to go about it is. If anyone has done rescue or fostering of this breed, that would be great advice.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my thread, I am guessing that since you were "working with a dog" you are an CAAB

NO, this is very important: not everyone who works with dogs is a CAAB. I am a trainer for an organization that rescues dogs from shelters and trains them to be service dogs for disabled people. I'm a trainer, not a behaviorist and certainly not a CAAB. That's why it's so important to make sure that you get a CAAB to help you with this dog, you can't just assume by someone's credentials that they are a CAAB. You can go to the website I linked to and do a search for a CAAB in your area; you can also search for the behaviorist that you worked with before and see if they are in fact on that list or not.

do you think Oscar is still young enough for "Bite Inhibition" training to work? I do not believe the whole "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" my old girl is always learning something new.

I also definately believe that you can teach an old dog new tricks. My organization gets dogs as old as 3 years old, and teaches them no less than 80 different cues to be a service dog; they learn just as fast as the younger dogs, maybe even faster since they're more mature.

But in your case, we're not trying to teach your dog cues, we'd have to teach him a behavior. It's an entirely different thing. I've been to several seminars and conferences about dog aggression, and the underlying theme in all of them is that you can't teach bite inhibition to a dog that has shown that he doesn't have it.

My next question is, how would he be taught this "Bite Inhibition" if he doesn't bite, that is the thing, not since he was a nippy bossy puppy, with the exception of this incident, has he ever bit anyone, or even tried to, he wont even play Tug of War with the other dogs,nor does he bite or mouthe them, not even playing,how would he be taught to control his bite, without being given the opportunity to bite, and since the only place he is aggressive is at home, it would be absolutely terrible of me if I brought someone here, with the intention to "bait" him into biting someone,which I would never do espcially since I have seen what a "frightened reactive bite" from him can do.

No, you should absolutely not try to bait your dog to bite.

When puppies are little, they have puppy teeth that are very sharp. There is really no evolutionary purpose to having such sharp teeth; I and many experts more knowledgeble then I am believe that their teeth are so sharp so that they will teach each other bite inhibition - how hard is play biting, and how hard is too hard. Littermates teach each other this when they play together, and humans teach puppies this as was described in the thread you posted in originally.

Unfortunately, you and your trainer have successfully taught your dog as a puppy that mouthing will get him severely (for a puppy) punished. This is why he won't play-mouthe or play tug with you today. Because your training was so effective, the only time he'll put his mouth on a person is when he's not really thinking about it; he'll be startled, or ill, or asleep, or in extreme pain, and won't even know what he's doing. And rather than just mouthing you (like the dog I was working with that I mentioned in the above post), he will give a damaging bite because he doesn't know how hard is too hard.

Yes, I do agree that in this case he didn't realize he bit your child until afterwards. It was not an aggressive behavior, it was simply an uncontrollable reflex. Which, IME, is worse. If it was aggression - like the chow that bit you was - the dog can be desensetized and the aggression can get a lot better. But your dog bit as a reflex. And it will happen again.

 

[Gisella]

Hi LizzyBeth,I was reading an artical about guard breeds etc. It was talking about how many breeders of the more agressive guard breeds (for example the Presa canrio and Fila) tell the buyer of the pup, that guard training is not necessary because the dog is bred to do it, which is misleading, apparently guard training teaches the dog when to bite, how hard to bite and more importantly,when NOT to bite, I did some research on the Presa Canario, which as it turns out, has a similar temperment to the Fila, and came across a breeder that also STRESSED the importance of guard training with "guard breeds" for the same reasons. I want to thank you because of your mention of "bite inhibition training" I started to look into this for older dogs and although they can not be taught "bite inhibition", Oscar is at the ideal age to teach him when to guard, how to properly guard, and when a threat is not a threat. I am looking for a guard trainer now, do you have any advice on what types of credentials a proper guard trainer should have? I know you are not a CAAB, but perhaps you can still offer me advice on what type of trainer I should go with. And yes, my trainer was on the CAAB list, but she does not do any kind of guard training, obedience only.

 

[Renee750il]

A Fila is NOT a Presa -- not by a long shot.

You do not need -- should not -- teach your Fila to guard. You teach your Fila when NOT to guard, and that comes by experience and socialization, not playing games in a training ring.

 

[Gisella]

A Fila is NOT a Presa -- not by a long shot.

You do not need -- should not -- teach your Fila to guard. You teach your Fila when NOT to guard, and that comes by experience and socialization, not playing games in a training ring.

Bad idea? Point taken and thought is officially out of my head. On a seperate note, we are making awesoms progress with oscar and Vinnie. Vinnie can walk into my bedroom when Oscar is crated and Oscar does not react with aggression. Last night Vinnie went into my room,(without me) approached Oscars crate, said hello to him and gave him half of the sandwhich he was eating. Oscar took the food gently, did not "mean mug" Vinnie and did not start barking, until Vinnie was leaving the room but it was not his " i'll get you" bark, it was the same bark that he gives me when I leave the room with out him.(Like most Fila's, Oscar does not like to be left alone and barks and howls about it.) So far so good. I still will not allow Vinnie to pet oscar, especially in the crate, because I do not want Oscar feeling cornered and defensive. Any idea on an activity that Vinnie and Oscar can do,while leashed (the dog not the boy) with me present of course, that can help the two of them bond. I thought maybe since Oscar enjoys being groomed that I could bring Vinnie with us to the groomer and Vinnie can help me give him a bath, I'll wash the half with the teeth.

 

[Renee750il]

I think you're definitely on the right track, but I'd do more work at home before doing anything at the groomer, since Oscar will be more aware in a place that's not home where there are people who aren't "his."

Animal crackers are a great way to the Fila heart, lol. I've used them to my advantage on more than one occasion with a Fila that didn't know me You can buy them in huge containers. Let Vinnie and Oscar share, with Vinnie doing the honors -- one for Vinnie, one for Oscar

 

[Gisella]

I think you're definitely on the right track, but I'd do more work at home before doing anything at the groomer, since Oscar will be more aware in a place that's not home where there are people who aren't "his."

Animal crackers are a great way to the Fila heart, lol. I've used them to my advantage on more than one occasion with a Fila that didn't know me You can buy them in huge containers. Let Vinnie and Oscar share, with Vinnie doing the honors -- one for Vinnie, one for Oscar

Oh sweet success!!! Oscar (while on the leash) goes right over to Vinnie and allows Vinnie to pet him. I was very excited (and a little nervous)the first time Vinnie got the nerve to call Oscar over to him, Vinnie was smart about it and armed with a pork chop and some left over grilled chicken, He gave Oscar the pork chop, which got him very interested in Vinnie, after he had the first "treat" Oscar kept walking as far as the leash and I would allow him, then he would "sit nice" and look at Vin, with that beautiful hangy mouth,covered in thick druel (eeeeeeewwwwwwwww) and Vinnie would give him the pieces of chicken, then while Oscar was still sitting Vinnie walked closer to him and called him over, Oscar walked over and sat right in front of Vinnie(without command) and let Vinnie pet him, with no resentment, no command given from me,("be polite" just sat there, when Vinnie was done petting him, he continued to "sit nice" and Vinnie gave him another piece of chicken, well then he wouldn't move, he just sat there for 5 minutes waiting for more food, so Vinnie gave him another piece. Now as soon as I take him out of the crate and get him on the leash, he looks all over for Vinnie, and when he sees him he goes right to him for a treat, and treat or not, he allows and wants Vinnie to pet him.

 

[Gisella]

The one issue I still have is if Vinnie or Nicholas pick up one of the babies, Oscar lunges at the ftont of his crate. Nick, trying to help me, heard the baby crying and went to get him from my bed room, well Oscar was in his crate, did not bark at Nick,until he picked the 1 yr old up, then Oscar lunged at the front of the crate, Nick put the baby down, the dog laid back down, Nick came to get me, so I walked with him into my room and told him to pick the baby up, Oscar of course was very disstressed and started barking, I told him "be polite" he calmed down, I told nick to bring the baby to me and he did, I took the baby from him, and then did the only thing I could think of that Oscar would understand.... I patted the boy on his head, scratched his belly, and said, in my stupidist talking to one of the dogs voice "who's mommy's good boy, that's a good boy" The child was too appauled to laugh, but it seemed to work.:rofl1: Oscar did calm down, I figure if I keep doing it, he will know that it's ok that they pick up the babies up, that they are doing it for me. He also has allowed my friend who has been staying with us for 2 months who is terrified of him, to pet him last night-she was armed with steak.