Having A Bad Day!!

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#1
Whenever we bring Colt out into the family portion of our home, he loses all his manners - he runs around in a frenzy, jumping on the furniture and as soon as the kids walk by he jumps on them, bites at their clothes, and growls (a play growl - no teeth). He's driving us nuts!!! The stand still like a tree and look at the sky thing just makes him even more insane. Colt is a 4 1/2 month old Collie.

So you ask, what do I do when he does this? Well, we calmly put him back in the kitchen and ignore him. We may wait a bit - 5 or ten minutes - and try again, but he does the same thing. Most of the time, he is very content in the kitchen. I'm wondering if he even wants to be with us. He seems to love his bed!! He wants to be in it ALL THE TIME!! I tried putting it in the family room but he didn't love it so much in there. I think he sleeps a lot, and he has been checked by a vet, and she says he is perfectly healthy. Puppies just need a lot of sleep. It seems like he doesn't like us though, like we are infringing on his space when we want to play with him!!?? Colt even sleeps in the kitchen alone. I used to bring him into our room in the crate and he hated this - he would cry and bark so now I leave him in the kitchen.

Colt gets plenty of exercise and goes on 1 or 2 walks a day. He behaves well on a leash and is great with other dogs. I think, for a puppy his age. We follow the NILF training and Colt will sit for anything - he sits to get his leash on, go out, get fed, pet, play - but once he does these things he is a nut!! Lately, he will ignore us when we give him a command. WE NEVER GIVE IN. We walk away and try again in a few minutes.. he gets nothing until he follows the command but sometimes it seems as if he is on his own timetable. If I put him on a lead and try to station him, he plays tug of war with the leash.

Is he OK? Is this normal puppy behavior? I let my kids take him out to potty, walk him, and feed him. He should be getting the message that he is last in the pecking order!! We are sad because we want to be with our puppy.

PS - We start puppy kindergarten tom. Will this help the home situation?
 

milos_mommy

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#2
sounds like my mom's wheaten. he's perfectly content in his cage, and while he doesn't get crazy around people (far from it), he freaks out whenever there's the slightest change of enviroment. he's 7 months old too, it's not like we just took him home. we took him to petco today and the entire time we were there he just barked and barked and barked. he's afraid of everything from crayons to people wearing hoods. i guess some dogs just like to be alone.
 
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Colt is definitely not afraid. The change of environment thing though, that might have some truth to it. I'm not sure, I can't put my finger on it, I just keep hoping it's a puppy thing and he will outgrow it. Colt won't lay with us and has no desire whatsoever to sit with us on the sofa or bed. He just runs around and acts like a bossy nut. I honestly think most of it is just Collie instinct and I just have no idea how to harness it!!??

Right now, my 9 year old is with him in the family room keeping him under control by giving commands and rewarding him with treats, but, the moment this stops, Colt will be mad and start harrassing him. What to do, what to do??
 
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First, your collie puppy is beautiful! I love the white blaze. Second, this is normal puppy behavior, normal collie behavior, and normal male collie behavior. He will outgrow it, but it's going to take awhile...a long time. Sounds like you are doing everything right. So keep it up, and don't get discouraged.

I don't know how many kids you have, but if you can keep them calm when the puppy is around that will help. Puppies respond to excitement with excitement. I don't think he's calmer when he's separated because he is happier without you. He's excited when he's with you because he's thrilled!

Do you have an Xpen or a play pen? I would prefer an xpen, as he's going to continue to grow. I like the Xpen because he can be separate from the family, but still be able to see everything going on. You can put the pen in the house or outside. If he continues to jump, bite, nip, etc, you can put him in the pen and he still can see what's going on.

I've had collies for 35 years. I had one male that sounds just like yours. Man he was all over the place and very stubborn. I threatened to disown him many times. But, I'll tell you, once the puppy and growth phases ended, he was one of the best dogs I've ever had. You just gotta hang in there.

Take a look at my site below. Look at the behavior areas. and feel free to email me anytime. It's a rough road, but it'll be worth it.
 
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#5
kidsanddogs - how appropriate!!!

Thank you so much - I really needed to hear that - it's EXACTLY what I wanted someone to tell me. How lucky for me it was another collie owner:) .

I try so hard to keep the children calm - 11, 9, & 4 - but as I'm sure you know, children, just by being children and huge bursts of energy!! They are trying really hard though because they love him sooooo much. They endure things from him that they would never tolerate on the playground!!

I do not have a playpen for the simple reason that my kitchen is completely open to the family room. He is gated in on either side. It accomplishes the same purpose as a playpen though. He sees everything and I thought this might be a bad thing because when he misbehaves and I put him in there, it doesn't seem like much of a punishment as he can still keep track of us.

I appreciate and value your input especially since you are so experienced with the beautiful Collie breed. I have always heard that they are very gentle and good with children - we are counting on this!! I plan to check out your site now.

Thanks again.....
 

wilford

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Whenever we bring Colt out into the family portion of our home, he loses all his manners - he runs around in a frenzy, jumping on the furniture and as soon as the kids walk by he jumps on them, bites at their clothes, and growls (a play growl - no teeth). He's driving us nuts!!! The stand still like a tree and look at the sky thing just makes him even more insane. Colt is a 4 1/2 month old Collie.

So you ask, what do I do when he does this? Well, we calmly put him back in the kitchen and ignore him. We may wait a bit - 5 or ten minutes - and try again, but he does the same thing. Most of the time, he is very content in the kitchen. I'm wondering if he even wants to be with us. He seems to love his bed!! He wants to be in it ALL THE TIME!! I tried putting it in the family room but he didn't love it so much in there. I think he sleeps a lot, and he has been checked by a vet, and she says he is perfectly healthy. Puppies just need a lot of sleep. It seems like he doesn't like us though, like we are infringing on his space when we want to play with him!!?? Colt even sleeps in the kitchen alone. I used to bring him into our room in the crate and he hated this - he would cry and bark so now I leave him in the kitchen.

Colt gets plenty of exercise and goes on 1 or 2 walks a day. He behaves well on a leash and is great with other dogs. I think, for a puppy his age. We follow the NILF training and Colt will sit for anything - he sits to get his leash on, go out, get fed, pet, play - but once he does these things he is a nut!! Lately, he will ignore us when we give him a command. WE NEVER GIVE IN. We walk away and try again in a few minutes.. he gets nothing until he follows the command but sometimes it seems as if he is on his own timetable. If I put him on a lead and try to station him, he plays tug of war with the leash.

Is he OK? Is this normal puppy behavior? I let my kids take him out to potty, walk him, and feed him. He should be getting the message that he is last in the pecking order!! We are sad because we want to be with our puppy.

PS - We start puppy kindergarten tom. Will this help the home situation?

Maybe your dog is just attracting your attention..Pet dogs are sometimes neglected..That's why they are doing something inorder for their masters to give them necessary attention..

I can see that your dog doesn't do any harm,he is just playing around..
 
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#7
Definitely not neglected.....

I'm a stay at home mom and we are around all the time. He goes for walks, outside, we're drilling him on skills ALL the time. It's the down time. If anything, maybe we're giving him too much attention. He's having trouble with the unstructured time - the time when we are not running through his skills or keeping him occupied. Obviously, we can't be working with him all the time. We can keep him occupied for a little bit with a kong or toy, but not for long.

I think it is a puppy thing and he just needs to mature more. We are really working hard with him staying calm and running through his skills when we can see him getting antsy. It's getting a little better each day....

Thanks for responding.....
 

Doberluv

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Lately, he will ignore us when we give him a command. WE NEVER GIVE IN. We walk away and try again in a few minutes..
He's not ignoring you. Dogs learn by reinforcement. They don't think things through logically the way we do. He hears you give a command, which may or may not have been associated with a behavior, or not enough for him to be sure. He hears you say something, he is doing whatever it is he's doing....makes the association with that and your English words. He finds out that you walk away. This means nothing to him. He may be confused as to what you mean. You need to elicit the behavior you're asking for and ONLY when he does it, give the command, then immediately reinforce with a reward HE likes. Until he stops guessing at what you mean....while he's still learning a command and it's association to the behavior, he will not be reliable with a correct response. Dogs have to guess what we mean until they've had a sufficient history of reinforcement for a behavior. Only then will they start repeating a behavior reliably. Commands do not drive the behavior. Reinforcement does. So, for anything you ask for, you need to be sure it happens and it is reinforced. If you give a command and don't see to it that it is enforced, help the dog, lure the dog, he will not make an association between your cue and the behavior you want. Reinforcement is something the dog loves, not something you think he might like.

Sometimes when dogs seem to be ignoring us, they are simply distracted by a more interesting environmental motivator. They are not purposely ignoring you, being stubborn, blowing you off or any of these other human-like projections. Dogs do not think that way. They're not complex enough. They simply do what works for them. That's just how they are. That's as far as it goes.

According to more recent evidence, there is no "pecking" order with our dogs and us. It appears there is also no pecking order between chickens, where that term originally came from. Very, very few domestic dogs are vying for a rise in some sort of social status. All the behaviors and poor communication between people and their dogs is so mistakenly dubbed "dominance" or the dog is trying to climb the social ladder. It is actually undertraining which is going on. They do not need to be thinking about hierarchy when their food is provided and they're not out there fighting for the rights for a breeding female. What we have are animals who are domestic, with some instincts from their forbearers, but who more recently are descended from solitary dogs......who have an ususual bond with humans, who need to learn rules and our ways, who need boundaries etc,etc....but HOW we get them to learn is another thing. We do not need to use the old school dominate or be dominated methods. We teach them by using scientific learning theory, operant conditioning. There are laws of learning like there are laws of physics. They work like gravity works. There is proof. You do this and this happens. You do that and another thing happens. Our response must be immediate, our reward. After a dog hears something or does something....after 3 seconds, he's onto something else.

I think the NILIF is great for teaching manners that you want. And for showing the pup that you control his resources. That's part of what makes you his leader or parent (in a way)But if you carry it so far as to never pay attention to the dog unless he does something for you first, this is unnatural and can be carried so far as to make a dog depressed and confused. It's another thing when you have a dog who is showing aggression...then you need to really drive home the point that you're the one who is providing everything he likes. For a little puppy, who simply hasn't been around long enough to learn the human ways.... to never give him affection unless he performs first seems unnecessary. I like to look at NILIF more as STILAF. (some things in life are free)

The book Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson, (among others) I highly recommend. It will help you sooooooo much.

He's a puppy. Puppies take time to grow and learn our ways and become mature, civilized (lol) adults. Just like toddlers don't turn into mature people over night.

Have patience and read that book. It's excellent and it's based on science, not the old school nonsense about pack theory and dominance. Another book I highly recommend is Dogs, a startling new understanding of canine origin, behavior and evolution, by Ray and Lorna Coppinger. Fabulous book, some compelling evidence and theory :http://www.workingdogweb.com/Coppinger.htm
 
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#9
Doberluv,

As usual, I appreciate your thorough response!!

You know, (I'm sure you do), there are so many conflicting theories out there on how to train your dog, it's agonizing for a beginner. I see your point about the ignoring thing, and, actually, that knowledge clarifies a lot for me and makes me feel better about our relationship with the dog. So, for now, given his age, it is OK to continue with frequent food rewards in order to reinforce commands? He is definitely distractable and it is easy for him to be with so much going on around him in our home. Lately I say "look at me" before I say sit or down so he focuses on me first. I hold a treat to my forehead. I did read somewhere that during "adolescence" no new privliges should be given and dogs do become stubborn.

As far as the "pecking order" - that theory is ALL over the place - even on here. A lot of books and people say that humans must establish themselves as "the boss" and that it is a dog's nature to want to be the "alpha" dog or leader of the pack, domestic or not. In one of my first posts, I can remember someone saying on here that my puppy would "move down the line" in his behavior towards us. I think it was on the post about Biting the Leash (not started by me), I'll have to look back. I was operating under that theory and trying to get Colt to see my children as higher up on the chain of command then him. You're saying this isn't necessary? What do you mean by undertraining?

I'm sorry if I seem really ignorant to you, but I am new to all of this and we are really trying to make this work and do the right things for our puppy. I was prepared for the chewing and housetraining and stuff, but not the biting. All dog owners were beginners at one time or another and I see myself as light years ahead of many of my friends who just bought a dog and that was that!! At least I am trying to learn but this forum can be somewhat intimidating if you know what I mean.

I will definitely look for the books you have mentioned, always open to that. I like to read and it seems like I have been reading all the wrong stuff.

I'm just really concerned that things are not normal with this pup. He really bites a lot. He leaves marks and sometimes I get the feeling he intends to hurt us. Colt will softly bite your hand when you are doing something he doesn't like - like putting on his harness or touching his ears, feet, etc. It will get harder if you continue. Is this normal? I know he is a herding breed but when he chases my children it is scary for them. He will nip at them even if they are sitting calmly. I'm concerned but everyone assures me this is puppy stuff and it takes time for them to "learn the rules". How long before you know for sure that you have an aggressive dog and it is not just puppy stuff? Do you wait for them to hurt someone? Do dogs forget their manners when they get tired?

He doesn't act this way around dogs. He is much more submissive. Does that mean anything? I wouldn't say we Never give him affection unless he performs for us first. We WANT to give him TONS of affection but all he wants to do is bite us!! He will sit on my lap and bite my hand and arm. If I give him something to chew on, he still bites my arm. It just seems as if he is focused, or you divert his attention running through his skills, he seems calmer and less likely to bite or chase. Could he be just overwhelmed by us? Is he frustrated because he can't keep track of us and his instincts are to "herd"? All these things run through my head - you must think I am a nut!!

Thanks for all your patience and help. I didn't realize when I joined this forum that a lot of you were highly experienced professionals in breeding and training. I know people like me must be frustrating to you guys, but, honestly, the tie that binds it that we love our dogs and want to do what is best for them. I want to learn so we can enjoy our dog and make him a wonderful family pet. I appreciate any help the "experts" can give me on that task....

PS - it stings when someone suggests you are "neglectful".. Why so many "biting" comments on this forum?
 
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"I see you have 11, 9 and 4 year olds! It's very important to include them in the training process, as I'm guessing your pups smart enough to obey you when correcting the mouthing and mounting issue, but he'll then quickly move on down the line to the next in the pecking order. (Kids) It is time for his obedience/puppy classes to start! Good luck!"

Here is that post. It was in the Training Forum under the thread "Looking for Collie Owners...."
 

Doberluv

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Yes, it is good to let the dog know that all humans control his resources. So when the puppy nips at them, they need to remove themselves or the pup so that that resource, human contact, social time (very important to dogs) is taken away....the good stuff, the reinforcer for the behavior your don't want is removed. A leader controls resources...just like a good parent. Child wants something, he should earn it, at least some of the time. A boss hands out the paycheck. But the employee needs to earn it.

Basically, for any behavior you want repeated, you give a payoff. (every time until the behavior is well learned, then you give a payoff on a variable schedule. The dog will keep trying because he thinks he might get a payoff. He'll even try harder. You skip a few times, no pattern....and then you reinforce. For any behavior you do not want, you make sure the dog is not being reinforced, not by humans, not by the environment or not by being self rewarded. A payoff is something the dog likes..... a lot. This is basic. There's more to learn. Everything is contingent on an act and a consequence. The consequence must be immediate for a dog. A lot of aversives are harmful to a dog. It is necessary to set a dog up for success. When he is doing something you don't like, distract, give an alternative behavior to show him what you DO want and reward. Any behavior which does not get a payoff will extinguish. The probability of any behavior being repeated is greatly increased by getting a payoff. This is law. The job is, discovering what that payoff is. Sometimes it's hard to see.

A lot of traditional, compulsive type training methods which use a lot of aversives come from faulty, disproven wolf studies. They're trying to emulate the way a wolf acts toward the other members of the pack. The trouble is that for one thing, the things they're trying to emulate, wolves don't do. They're going by these old wolf studies which were done 60 years ago on wolves in captivity which were not related to eachother...not a natural pack. And a natural pack is a fluid thing anyhow. Wolves are not always in a pack. The need is only for hunting large game, raising young and breeding.

The second problem with this is that although dogs evolved from wolves (their DNA is very closely identical) there is compelling evidence that wolves first evolved into a solitary, non packing wild dog who lived in proximately to humans....around the outskirts of villages, scavenging for garbage basically. They lived this way for a long, long time before they became truly domesticated. Domestic dogs are very different from wolves. They've evolved, are designed to live with humans, to recognise many human cues which wolves do not, even from birth. So, the premise is, that no, we do not need to be extremely dominating and be thinking about being anything more than we would be as a parent, except we're dealing with dogs. Yes, they need to learn our ways, rules and so forth....of course. And they are very, very social animals. We seem to have a real family going on with them. But many researchers do not believe that they see us as dogs, much less.....wolves. We're human. They're designed to live with humans because of evolution and domestication.

The point is, they need to be taught how to live with humans, learn our ways and they're very good at learning these things. There is a way to teach them these rules and our strange ways but trying to be extremely dominating, harsh and squelching isn't the way. Research and practice for quite a long time has shown that "positive" methods (not a very technically correct term) work beautifully and effectively in molding a well mannered, well trained dog who is happy too. Positive methods promote a smarter dog in many trainers' and behaviorists' opinion because the dog becomes a participant in his learning, he figures things out himself rather than being forced and dominated. There are many benefits...too may to write here. But you'll get a better understanding when you read those books. Culture Clash is more on training and how dogs think based on science. The other book I mentioned will show why trying to act like a wolf or a dog is irrelevant. And it's just so very fascinating anyhow. It's good to know how domestic dogs most likely came to be and what they came to be and our relationships with them.

There are all kinds of studies and observations, experiments, long term studies which will most likely, eventually put a lot of the old dominance panacea to rest. Unfortunately, old habts die hard and some of this stuff still flourishes.

Walt Disney movies with dogs, although entertaining have really done a disservice to dogs, making them out to think like humans. This is where people expect so much from their dogs, relate to them as they would a human, have impossible expectations of their dogs, think of them in human terms; stubborn, willful, defiant, blowing them off, spiteful, vengeful and here is where and why the poor dogs suffer mistreatment and abuse. These mental states are human concepts which dogs do not have the ability to think that way. They don't share our values or morals. They're ammoral.

Puppies play rough. I don't believe that your pup is trying to hurt you. Puppies and dogs can bite eachother hard and it doesn't hurt. Human skin is extremely fragile. The pup doesn't know this. It's one of those things he has to learn over time. His payoff for biting, your attention (or your kids) must be removed immediately. Attention can qualify as touching, looking at, speaking to in any way, shape of form. All attention, all fun must be stopped at once. When he is playing nicely, even for 2 seconds, give him his favorite treat....maybe a tiny piece of cheese or hotdog, quiet, low key praise. If he bites, abruptly get up and leave the area.

Rather than go through all the different behavior problems and situations, why don't you read that book and even browse through this forum (puppy and training forums) You can do a search too on top of the page. Your problems are very common because this is how puppies are.

Be sure and give your pup some good, tiring exercise; romping hard outside and a few short walks. Avoid repetetive, long term exercise. But lots of fetch or running around in your yard. Do that several times a day. And keep working on basic obedience, 10 mintues or so at a time, a couple times a day. Get his brain and physical needs an outlet. A tired puppy is a good puppy. (not to the point of exhaustion)

Does he have plenty of hard chew toys; Kongs, Nyla bones etc? When he bites you, give him an alternative. Show him what he CAN bite and praise him for that. It takes time.

See what you can find browsing the forums here and hurry and get that book. LOL.

Here are a few other good ones for after Culture Clash and the other one: These are all written by scientists who have been studying dogs for decades, PhDs in their field etc. Karen Pryor was a dolphin trainer for sea world. She revolutionized clicker training for dogs and many other animals. This is based on operant and classical conditioning. (well, clicker training is based on classical conditioning) But anyhow, it's the science of learning and it is very, very appropriate and effective where dogs are concerned. Rather than being at war with dogs, such as the old, traditional yank and jerk methods, the dog is engaged with the learning process, not forced.

The Power of Positive Training....Pat Miller
The Other End of the Leash...Patricia McConnell
Don't Shoot the Dog, Karen Pryor

Don't be afraid to ask questions no matter how silly you think they are. We don't come automatically knowing about every subject. It takes education like anything else.

I had the computer guy here to set up my new computer and make some changes and he mentioned something about cookies. The only kind of cookies which came to my mind were doggie training cookies. I am completely inept when it comes to computers. But I've studied canine and wolf behavior for years and I've had dogs for 47 years or so, all that time to observe them and train them because it has always been my passion since I was very young...horses too. I'm very familiar with them. But I sure don't know much about computers or a whole lot of other things.
 
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#12
Good point with the Disney example. A lot of children's shows do this, not just Disney. My 4 year old wants to know why our dog doesn't talk like Kipper (another cartoon in case you don't have little ones around, LOL)?

I have ordered Culture Clash, Power of Positive Training, and The Other End of the Leash, they should be here be Friday. I am leaving on vacation on Sunday for 5 days. My husband will be home with the puppy and I feel he is in good hands (the puppy, LOL). I plan to read up on vacation!!

I am seeing an improvement, Doberluv, and as long as things keep going in that direction, I feel confident we'll be fine. We are being consistent with payoffs and not rewarding naughty behavior like biting (i.e. stopping ALL attention), and I really do see him starting to get it. He goes for longer periods of time with us without getting mouthy. Of course, this also requires a lot of training with the kids teaching them to be calm and their payoff is getting to be with the puppy. Everyone is adjusting slowly but surely.

We are in a puppy class too at Petsmart. I have only been to one class so far, but she does use positive training. I like it for the socialization too. It's the only thing we can fit in right now due to our schedules. Actually, she seems quite knowledgeable.

I treat Colt more like one of my babies now. Understanding that he knows NOTHING about our world, speech, manners, etc. Explaining to the family that his bad behavior isn't his fault, he just hasn't learned enough yet. I think I'm getting it. I was expecting too much too soon. And I love when you say to let him be a puppy, just like kids should be kids!!

Thanks again, I'll check in after the trip and let you know what I think of the books....
 

Doberluv

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#13
Oh great! Have a wonderful vacation. How nice to get away from it all and just read. I think you'll love those books. If you have any money left after your vacation, you should get that book by Ray and Lorna Coppinger. It's like a concrete foundation. It's very interesting! Let us know how things go and how your vacation was. Have fun!

Oh, and the puppy class sounds great. Yes, it is so important for socialization. That's the most important thing for me when I have a puppy.....socialization. Obededience 2nd.
 

wilford

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Oh great! Have a wonderful vacation. How nice to get away from it all and just read. I think you'll love those books. If you have any money left after your vacation, you should get that book by Ray and Lorna Coppinger. It's like a concrete foundation. It's very interesting! Let us know how things go and how your vacation was. Have fun!

Oh, and the puppy class sounds great. Yes, it is so important for socialization. That's the most important thing for me when I have a puppy.....socialization. Obededience 2nd.
I've got a copy of that book last month..Well,it really helped me a lot in training my new labrador puppies at home..They already learned new tricks by the aid of such book..Well, I'll be purchasing one for my cousin probably by next week..
 

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