Growling/Nipping

Aeternal

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#1
Hi, I'm new here and I'm in desparate need of some help.

I have a 4 or 5 year old beagle who's been getting aggressive for the past year or so. I know that he has a problem with barking at strangers, but my biggest problem with him is if I give him a bone, he will growl and try to bite me if I get it.

If he doesn't get a bone, he's pretty much a normal dog who obeys me most of the time. He still needs some work on "come" but otherwise he's fine. I don't know if I should get a trainer like Bark Busters to come and help since I only have this problem when he eats bones. If he eats his kibble, my dog has no problem sharing.
 

Lizmo

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#2
have you trid to hold the bone while he is eating it??? Just have your hand on one side of it and let him eat of the other end. I did this with Lizzie my border collie mix the other day and she loved it she just sat there with her eyes half closed and eat knawed on her bone. What is Bark Busters??
 

ihartgonzo

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#3
You should teach him the "drop it" or "leave it" command. Start by trading him something lower value (like a chew, or a toy) for a treat, and telling him to "drop/leave it", take the chew away, then reward. You can work your way up to higher value items (like bones) and use higher value treats (like hotdogs).

Fozzie will "drop" anything that is in his mouth on command, because he knows that he gets rewarded when he obeys, and he's only 6 months old.
 

elegy

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#4
1) stop giving him bones
2) play the trade game as ihartgonzo described
 

Aeternal

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#5
My dog will only trade off items if he actually sees the treat...and if I don't have a treat he will growl...

Sometimes if he will ignore the treat...
 

Roxy's CD

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#6
Although you say he's fine with everything else. I wonder.

If you are the true leader you shouldn't have a problem taking a bone from him.

NILIF is a great way to help enforce your role as leader.

Make him work for everything he gets.

And as mentioned, to start, trading him a treat or toy for the bone would be a way to start.

This may not be "right" but this is what I would do... I just thought of it now. Sounds really weird and Im sure someone will have something wrong with it, but I can't imagine every being afraid of my own dog biting me.

I'd tie a string to the bone. Give the dog bone. When I went to take it, I'd say "give it". I assume that your afraid he's going to bite you because he snarls, growls whatever. Well when he'd look up at me to snarl or growl, I'd pull the string and get the bone far out of his reach. Pick it up. And say "Good give it!" and give him a treat.

It may sound weird, but I really can't imagine worrying about my own dog biting me. If the trading doesn't work, I'd do this, until I could take the bone. And if that didn't work. I just wouldn't give him bones at all and seriously start implementing NILIF into his everyday life. :)
 

elegy

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Aeternal said:
My dog will only trade off items if he actually sees the treat...and if I don't have a treat he will growl...

Sometimes if he will ignore the treat...
ok, if he's ignoring the treat, you need to either be trading for something of less value, or you need a better treat.

you need to use the treat not as a bribe, but as a REWARD. don't show the treat and then take the low-value object that you're playing the trade game with. ask him to give, take the object, and then give him the awesome reward.

this would be a good thing to work with a professional trainer in person on.

roxy- sorry, but that seems like an awfully good way to get bitten.
 

Roxy's CD

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#8
How would you get bit? :eek:

That's the whole point of the string. Your not close to the dog at all. But he gets the idea that "give it" means, no more bone, and I get a treat.
 

elegy

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#9
um, dog follows bone on string to you?

it just makes like a billion times more sense to me to work on a give command with an item that's not going to cause the dog to get guardy and defensive. every time the dog growls, imo, you lose. you've pushed too far. you've gone beyond what the dog is capable of doing.

why set your dog up to fail?
 

Doberluv

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#10
You have inadvertantly taught your dog this behavior. When you take a high value thing away from a dog often without giving a higher value (in the dog's mind) in trade, you teach the dog that when you say, "drop" something bad happens. He does what you ask, gives you the bone and you take it away. Soon, the cue, "drop it" loses it's former meaning and now means that something he doesn't like is going to happen. This growling is his communication to you to not take his bone. This is a strong instinct for a dog... any dog anywhere in a hierarchy to defend his stuff. It doesn't have anything to do with leadership. Leaders don't take food already in possession of another dog...very rare. This needs some thorough counter conditioning.

Dogs learn by being reinforced for responses they give you. If they fail to give you the correct response, the resonse you want, it is because they have not had an ample history of reinforcements for it. All behavior is dependent on reinforcement. It doesn't matter that someone want hims to do something just they're the "boss" because dogs are not obedient to our values, ideas or morals.

My recommendation to you is to take your pup back to kindergarten, "Give and Take 101."

Procedure: Give the dog a lower value item, (stop giving him bones for a while) something he likes but does not value too highly. Teach him "take" where he takes it from your hand on cue. Take a higher value treat (than his toy) (a little training treat, but not of the very highest value, from a near by table) and ask him to "give" you the item to your hand. (you can use "drop" instead of "give" but I'll use "give" here on, for the sake of this description) Give him the treat immediately when he does. If he does not give, show him the treat and then ask again. When he has eaten the treat give him back the toy. Repeat. Then toss the toy 2 or 3 feet away and encourage him to bring it to you. Trade for a treat and toss it back for him to retrieve. If he is not into retrieving and you don't want to teach him that yet, then continue "give" and "take," trading for the treat. Make it a game. Make it fun. Leave the toy with him and walk away and do something else. If you need to take the treat to put it away, come back and play with him for a few times first and trade him for a yummy treat. Find something else for him fun to do.

After 3 or 4 days of this, as long as he's fine with the previous, lower value things, move up to a higher value item, but not the highest you can imagine. And do the same thing. Increase the value of the treat somewhat (not the highest value)(tiny)Take this lesson/GAME on the "road" by trying it in different locations, contexts and at random times throughout the day. Vary the toys or items your dog has in his possession and vary the treats a little bit. Do this for a week or so before trying with a high value bone or special toy which he covets. Always reinforce him for "giving" to you. Give him back the item right away, every time for now.

A reinforcement is a reward which increases the probabililty of a correct response. In other words, a reward which he can't resist is a reinforcement. And believe me, he can resist praise unless it's of higher value than the toy or bone you want to take from him. (which I can almost guarantee it is not)

A piece of mozerella cheese, steak, chicken is difficult to resist, even for the most finicky eaters. What you think of as a reward is not necessarily a reinforcer. It must be something the dog loves and must be of higher value that the motivator which is reinforcing him at the time. Ie: Chewing on his bone, toy or other possession.

After you've practiced this in various locations, various treats, various possessions and you see that your dog has absolutely no trepidation about giving you things, that he is giving you things promptly and happily, as though he's playing a game....only then move up to a high value possession. "give" (to you) and give it right back to him... "take." Reward with a hunk or two of chicken or steak or something equally good. Do it two or three times and then let him chew on it or play with his possession by himself. Leave him alone for a while. When you want his session with it to end, again trade him. Don't harrass him with taking the bone away over and over. Just practice a couple of times and leave him enjoy it. Do this every time for weeks before you start varying the reward schedule. When he is giving you no sign or hint of aggression, a hard eye, stare, nervousness... and is giving you all kinds of items in all kinds of contexts/situations, you then can skip a reward when he gives. You can skip a couple of times, but vary the number of times you skip. Ie: skip one time, then 2, then 4, then 1, then 6, then 3, then 8. Gradually, you will phase out the reward by making larger intervals between reinforcers... however, still with no strict pattern for his giving you an item.... and you will no longer need to give it back to him. Once in a while, still.....do give him a treat for giving you something to keep him from regressing, especially when you're taking a high value item. All skills and behaviors will regress without a little practice. This is the way it is.

I take things from my Doberman, even a fresh, meaty bone with absolutely no objection from him. (I had to take a deer leg bone from him to make sure it had no worms. Gross! But it looked OK so I gave it back) LOL. I no longer have to give him anything in exchange every time. I just take it. But like I said, here and there I do continue to reward him with what HE likes for giving me something.
 

Roxy's CD

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#11
I guess I just can't understand actually worrying about my own dog biting me.

It's never been a thought in my mind, even when taking away things like fresh meaty bones or their favourite toy, or anything really...

I never traded my dog for the bone. It's my bone and if I want it I get it. I shouldn't have to trade you for anything! It's mine to begin with!
 

silverpawz

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#12
I would make sure the dog is on a leash before you give him the bone. Then you can simply pick up the leash and walk away, the dog has to follow you, You now have better control over the dog. Ask for a sit, or down or whatever. THEN, whip out the treats and reward him for obeying you. He'll have to drop the bone to get the treat.

I don't trade with my dogs or any dog for that matter. I'd much rather reward them for doing something I ask, then to bargin with them for the bone. But that's just me, I'm sure trading works well for some folks.
 

tinksmama

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#13
Doberluv's got good ideas for you to work on...but roxy, i see your point, if your dog has been NILIF trained, and my pup has, then everything in the house is already mine,and she knows it- so pulling it away would work.
Stop giving this dog anything unless he obeys a command, and then only for limited periods,and when you say so. Other than that, put all toys and bones away, to be given for good behavior.
For now, Tinks only reward for 'giving' some nasty thing up to me is a good pat down and a GOODGIRL! But if she showed aggression at a bone, that would be the last time she got one, till I reprogrammed her NILIF stuff back into her... When she first got a pig ear, she got ugly at ds, which meant no more pig ear except in my training situation till she understood that it wasn't really her pig ear, it was ours and we were letting her borrow it! Now the pig ear isn't an issue at all...thank goodness!
 

CamzKees

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#14
hrmmm

You will get some good advice, but probably not all of it will agree. The point is that you should be able to do anything to your dog at any time, and that he/she should accept it with out growling, and with a cheerful heart.

Some people say that it's not dominant behavior, but I believe it is. I think that is your dog telling you, "You are not the boss of me! This is my bone, and I don't care what you want, you can't have it!"

IMO, that message is pretty clear. Here is an interesting article for you:

Is Your Dog Or Cat Possessive-Aggressive?
by Corey & Phyllis Cohen

Many people complain that their dog or cat guards his food or toys. We also hear complaints that their pet will guard their favorite sleeping or resting place as well. These problems can be serious if not addressed properly. Unfortunately, many people attempt the wrong approach to solving these problems. They often unintentionally perpetuate them as well.

When people get a new pet, especially a puppy, they often heed advice to show their pet that it's okay for them to approach his food bowl, or remove a toy from his mouth. They believe that every time the puppy is eating, it is a good thing to go over and take away the bowl for a moment, just to prove to the animal they can! They will attempt the same tactic with a toy, by approaching the puppy that is quietly chewing on his bone, and take the bone away. Of course, they always give the bone back, but the damage has already been done.

This approach will surely create possessiveness in the animal, as he becomes more and more fearful of someone taking away his stuff. Eventually, he hits his threshold, and fights back. Often he will only give you a warning growl, but often the dog will lash out with a bite. These bites can be very serious. This in turn causes the owner to either become frightened of the pet, or extremely angry. If they are afraid, the pet will sense this and feel as if he now has a way of gaining control of situations by acting aggressively. He will apply this strategy to other situations, because it was perceived to be effective. This evolves in to an aggressive, and sometimes dangerous pet.

If the owner becomes angry at the pet for growling or biting, then he may attempt to correct the animal. This makes the dog even more defensive, as he feels he needs to fight back to survive. The problem snowballs in the wrong direction. The dog or cat will begin to be afraid any time the owner approaches, and may act aggressively. This animal is often labeled a "fear-biter".

If you look at it from the animal's perspective, it is easy to see why this happens. Your dog is happily chewing his bone, or eating his food, and all of a sudden, for no reason, you come over and take it away. The first time this happens, it isn't a big deal, but after a few times, it becomes annoying. And after a few more times, it becomes an aggressive act toward the pet. You are doing to your pet the very thing you are trying to prevent him from doing.

Imagine that you are walking down the street, and someone grabs your handbag away. They immediately give it back and give you a compliment. A few moments later, or even the next day, they do it again. Day after day, this happens. Each day you grow more and more wary of people approaching you, and when you see the guy who keeps doing this to you, you grab on to your bag with all your might. There will certainly come a time where you will fight back, because you've decided that enough is enough! This is exactly how your dog or cat feels.

There is a better way to prevent and correct possessive aggression. It is best done preventively, but it is also quite effective as a corrective measure. Create a scenario where your pet actually loves when you take something away from them. He will invite you to come over and share their food bowl! He may even bring his possessions to you, rather than hiding from you in fear of losing them.

To begin, wait until your dog's feeding time. In his bowl, only put in half the amount of food he normally eats. The other half is either in your hand, or in a small bowl you'll hold on to. Put his food down and stand next to him. As he begins to eat, get his attention by calling his name, or making a strange sound. As he looks up at you, praise him, and offer him a small amount of food from your hand. Keep praising him as he eats this, and then let him go back to his own bowl. Repeat this process several times until you have no food left in your hand. Then let him finish his food. Repeat this process for one more feeding.

The next step is similar, but instead of standing next to him while he's eating, you'll walk up to him to put food in his bowl, and then walk away. Each time you feed him, you'll walk up to him. Do this for the next two or three feedings.

The next step is the same, except, put the food in his bowl, so he sees that you are adding food to his dish. Do this a few times during his feeding, and for three or four feedings. By this time, he should welcome you any time you come near his dish when he's eating. To maintain this, once or twice a week, while he's eating his usual portion of food, walk up to him and put a special treat in his bowl. You can even pick up his dish to add the treat.

A similar process is done for treating and preventing possessiveness of toys. Begin when your dog is happily chewing a bone, or playing with a toy. Stand next to him and begin praising him, so he feels no threat from you. Then, offer him one of his favorite treats from your hand. He'll have to drop the toy to get it, but make no attempt to pick it up. Repeat this a few times each session for a few days in a row.

The next step is to hold out your hand and ask your dog to "drop it", as you show him the treat. If he does, and eats the treat, immediately give him back his toy and praise him. If he won't let go, then gently take it out of his mouth, give him the treat, then the toy back, and praise him. Repeat a few times for a few days in a row.

To maintain this, once or twice a week, just go over to your dog when he's playing or chewing, offer him a treat for his toy, then give him the toy back with lots of praise.

This is all you need to do to get your dog to feel as if he benefits from you taking something out of his mouth, or going near his food. He will be eager to let objects go, because he is getting something in return. You will successfully increase his level of trust for you through these simple steps.

If your dog is possessive of locations, such as his favorite sofa, the same method will apply. Just approach him and offer him a treat the first few times. Then ask him to come off the sofa (or away from the location), for the treat. Maintain by doing this once or twice a week.

Many problems can be avoided by looking at it from your dog's perspective. Think of how he feels each time a certain event happens. Remember that the overall goal is to create and maintain a successful relationship with your dog, one that is based on trust and respect rather than deceit and intimidation.
 

Doberluv

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#15
It's my bone and if I want it I get it. I shouldn't have to trade you for anything! It's mine to begin with!
LOL. That's your opinion or.... a human interjecting human values onto a dog. That's not the way the dog thinks. Dogs are animals and they have natural instincts hard wired into them. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, even in the wild. Even in the wolf studies I've been doing for my research, rarely does another wolf take food or a bone from another already in possession of it, not even an alpha. So, we humans are asking them to do something which is not natural. Some dogs don't mind and some dogs are more serious about their stuff. Some have been conditioned by us to become more defensive about their stuff because too many times something has been taken from them. It's the law of effect.

Some dogs are softer than others. To prevent a dog from feeling "ripped off," it's a good idea to do a little preventative measure. A lot of dogs are well mannered, obedient in every other way but have a problem with this. It really isn't about being a good leader or not.

When a dog is already developing this growling/possessiveness, conditioining is the only safe way to deal with it...teach the dog that it is a good thing to give you the thing in his possession, that he's not losing out.
 

CamzKees

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#16
hey now, no need to be sarcastic, and then try to cover it up with a happy face or an LOL of whatever.

I'm not sure what you found so funny, but I'm glad you're amused.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I never have claimed to be a dog psychologist, and these are all opinions here.

If you believe you are more well informed then I (which you may very well be) you can post your opinion with out being condescending.
 

Roxy's CD

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#17
This subeject has come up before, and I've admitted I'm a meanie abou this.

But you raise a question, :D, I thought that the "alpha" was in control of everything. Food, toys, love, attention etc.

I understand what your saying about in the wild... that does not happen. But let's say it did... I'm sure it must happen at sometime, when a lower ranking dog comes across something, perhaps even a bone, and the alpha strolls by and wants it. The lower ranking dog I imagine would cower, drop the bone and run would they not?

I just find it odd, that Roxy, who I know is a high defense fight dog, is more than fine for me, or my niece and nephew to take a bone from her. She has *never* growled or snarled!

Although you covered that, "Some dogs don't mind..." so I guess Roxy and Hades just don't mind and I'm lucky. (And I've posted that before too :D )

The way I think my dogs look at it: We got a new bone. We're chewing on it, it's great fun! Oh, mommy wants it. (They follow me while I put it away, or say "leave it".) Hmmm. I'm gonna go play with my duck.

The only guarding that goes on in my house, is between Roxy and Hades with toys and bones. I've never felt in the slightest that Roxy or Hades has "guarded" a bone. Roxy often wants you to hold it, or places it against your feet while she eats.

Camkeez- That's Red's outlook on the topic as well, I've heard it and while I understand the gist of it, I guess I'm just a big bitch! ROFL

Now that I think of it, I guess like Doberluv said, my guys have probably been conditioned into giving stuff up by now. BUT, I bet the reason I never feared to get bit when I first started taking stuff, was because they're such good dogs! :D ROFL HAHA
 

CamzKees

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#19
:)
*grin*

I don't know, Orchid was never allowed to be possessive of anything. Not that she didn't TRY, we just always have corrected her when she growled, bit, barked when she wasn't supposed to, or whatever. Is that conditioning?

I mean...now that she's older, she doesn't think anything of us taking a bone, a toy, or whatever. Plus, we don't feel like we have to replace it with anything. Then again, she has so many toys, that she can always go find another.

The only reason we've taken a toy or bone away is if she's chewed it into very small parts which are dangerous for her to swallow- and you know puppies, they explore the world with their mouths!

As for being a "meanie"- heck, so am I about some things. I try not to be "mean" but if someone is doing something I think is a bad idea, I try to let them know in a no-nonsense kind of way.

If I ever have come off as sarcastic, it was unintentional. I know that we here at Chaz are from all different walks of life, etc., and what is common knowlege to one is not to another.

*shrugs* :)
 

Doberluv

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#20
I think it does happen that another wolf will try to take something from another. It's just not something that they go around doing a lot, unless they're very, very hungry. And if they do, it appears that the other is "within his rights" to defend his bone. Even when an alpha is the one who tries to take it.

I thought that the "alpha" was in control of everything. Food, toys, love, attention etc.
I don't think the alpha is in control of everything and what he is in control of, isn't all the time. I think it's mostly food distribution and breeding so it's seasonal.

And an alpha really, is usually nothing more than the Dad. A pack is usually a mom, dad and pups. It's not different than parents and parents are just naturally the leaders in all animals. So the term alpha really adds no information. It is not the tight, rigid pack situation that is often misinterpreted. Sometimes the alpha female is more "in control" than the alpha male...when she has pups, for instance. The alpha doesn't go around constantly displaying aggression or a lot of dominance posturing. And doesn't give a hoot about most things. That's why CM drives me nuts. He thinks everything is about dominance. Dominate or be dominated. That's ridiculous IMO. Plus.....our domestic dogs aren't even wolves! LOL. We've lived with them for a very long time. And they are quite different behaviorally.

So, I don't know. It's personal preference how you want to look at it, I guess. If it's within your right to take something since you are the "alpha" or... if it's a case of "I need to take that, but here.....have this instead." I tend to see my dogs as my partners, the whole relationship is a give and take thing, mutually beneficial. I teach or lead, but I get behaviors I want by making it benefit the dog to give me the behavior I want. It's just the way I perceive things...probably on account of the amazement and gladness I possess about the very process of domestication with humans. I've been doing a lot of research on this and it was always a synergistic relationship. The tamest wolves came close to man, alerted and protected man against predators, helped man hunt etc.... and man in turn fed them and gave them shelter and companionship. They changed over a long period of time into what we now have. And I just have an innate appreciation for this two way street sort of respect. Of course, like any child, they need rules and boundaries, but it's HOW we get the behaviors we want that I'm concerned with. I don't feel that I have a right to over dominate a dog.
 
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