growling and biting question....

[Rokell]

I hope I'm not posting too many questions... never the less here comes another one....

In short....

- First, it was only to our 9 year old son. Now, its developed into any family member being fair game. He'll bite onto our pants and start to pull and shake his head and won't let go.

- He bites hard and growls when I/we try to dry him after he comes in from outside all wet

- He will randomly just decide to lunge out and bite our faces. Today he jumped up and bit my glasses - hard. I just ended up with a big wet smudge on my right lense but I wonder what would of happened if I didn't have them on.

- And, tonight I was cuddling with him and he just turned around and nipped my cheek

- He seems to use growling as a form of communication as well. Ex...
to let him out, to let him down, don't hold me like that, I'm tired etc. Is this "normal" puppy behaviour. Our last dog, a Lab, did nothing of the sort.


I just don't get it. It just seems to be getting worse every week. At first it seemed like just tolerable puppy behaviour. But, now my husband and I are feeling concerned.

My son and husband do enjoy rough housing with him. It seems like all fun and games but are they encouraging him to be hyper or ill mannered?

Puppies are alot fun and alot of hard work. I'm starting to feel worned out.

Let me just add that he is only like this 10% of the time. He is typically very loving and extremely easy going. I think this is what is confusing us the most.

Anyway, thanks for any input.

PS He is twelve weeks old.

 

[Dana1384]

What kind of dog is he?

 

[wookie130]

I don't think you have that much to be concerned about...but I do have some suggestions, so that you're not actually reinforcing or rewarding the growling/biting behavior. It's normal for puppies to be nippy/growly, as they often play like this with their littermates. However, it's their littermates that usually show them what is acceptable during rough play, and now it's up to you and your family to act in their place.

When your puppy bites or growls at you, the best thing you can do is stop playing. Period. When he bites, let out a yelp, and ignore him. Same with growling. This way, you're not reinforcing the biting/growling behavior with more attention. If your puppy latches on to your skin, yelp, and cover it's nose gently to block the airway. This way, he'll let go of your arm, hand, leg, whatever. Then, walk away, and ignore him. You must be consistent and have the same reaction/response each time your puppy bites and growls, in order for him to finally make the connection between the behavior and your response.

It will get better! A twelve week old puppy has a lot to learn, and I would discourage you from a lot of rough/physical play, as it will confuse your puppy. If you don't want him to bite, don't promote the type of play that typically leads to him taking a hunk out of you and your family.

 

[mrsgrubby]

I would for sure tell your husband and son to STOP the rough play with the puppy. Later on you can teach him tug'o war, but not until you know the proper rules of the game yourself, like if he touches his teeth on your skin the game is over.

Puppies bite and play, just like baby humans put everything in their mouth, so do baby dogs. The best thing to do it always keep one of his chew toys, boys, in your hand and then when he tries to chew on you, substitute it for something you would rather have him chew on.

there are alot of "wives tales" like holding thier mouth shut, tapping their nose, alpha rolling, I would not recomend you do that at all.

Just make sure your puppy is given plenty of acceptable things to chew on, also make sure he is getting plenty of exercise, walks, ball playing. The more exercise the better, as you will notice....a sleeping puppy does not bite.

 

[bubbatd]

^^^^ agree ! NO ROUGH HOUSING with young pups !!

 

[LargeDogBreedz]

Better nip this in the bud before your dog gets big enough to bite a hole in your cheek. I'd watch your husband and son around the dog when playing, they could be subconsciously teaching her bad habits with the rough play. They may be encouraging the snapping and biting. Your dog will then start to think this is an ok behavior to display.

If the dog ever snaps at you, let her snap, DONT BACK UP and show NO FEAR. The dog is learning that this is the way to keep you at bay and your dog will start to think that she is the the more dominant member of the pack. Instead, let her bite, stand your ground, put your hand on her back and sit her down with a certain command like "STOP" or "NO". Rolling her onto her back will also help in establishing dominance with this dog. Dog's who lay on their back around other dogs is a sign of dominance around their pack surroundings. The command must also stay consistant. The strategy here is to stay firm and calm during these situations and direct a certain power of sterness and authority over the pup so she understands that you are the leader of the pack and this type of behavior will not be tolerated.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Rolling a puppy who is feeling a bit big for his britches is a good way to get bitten.

Get this puppy in training class pronto.

 

[Doberluv]

Agree with Red. Absolutely do not establish dominance with your dog. The alpha roll is indeed a good way of teaching your dog that he needs to defend himself. Defensive, fearful dogs bite. No dog or wolf throws a dog on his back unless he is going to kill him. I can't imagine wanting a puppy to think his owner or leader is going to kill him. These are all outdated, disproven, abusive ways to attempt to teach a puppy our ways. Yelling, punishing with aversives is NOT necessary to teach your pup and is in fact mistreatment of an animal. And indeed counter-indicated.

First of all, he's a baby...12 weeks old. He is playing and puppies play rough. He is not trying to keep you at bay or stage a coupe to take over your world. This is normal puppy behavior, especially if he's been reinforced for playing roughly and given no preferable alternative.... and if he's got a lot of pent up energy and no outlet.

What do you do with him? What is his schedule like during the day? How much exercise, how often? What kind of training are you doing and how? What kind of socializing have you done with him up to now?

Get this pup signed up for a class with a trainer who uses gentle methods...no yanking, scruffing, intimidating at all. You need this dog to trust you and see you as his leader. Good leaders do not get physical or verbally harsh.

You need to find out what he loves about whatever he is doing which you don't like and remove it. If paying attention to him is what he's after, walk away and end all playtime. If he's teething and it feels good to chew your hands or pant legs, distract him with a hard rubber chew toy and praise him for chewing that. He needs alternative behaviors to work his mind and get him onto something that he can be reinforced for. He will then, after a enough reps, repeat that which gives him a payoff...something he wants.

Puppies don't come automatically knowing how to live with humans. They're animals. Give him time and teach him with patience and kindness. Find out how to train, how dogs think and learn. They do not know "right" from "wrong." They're amoral and it is confusing to them to use harsh aversives. You'll ruin your pup if you follow advice of people who think this is dominance or pack behavior coming from a 12 week old infant???? Domestic dogs are more directly descended from solitary village dogs. They are not pack animals. If people would finally get away from this outdated, unscientific nonsense, they wouldn't have so much trouble with their dogs. You do not have to be at war with your puppy. It's not about dominate or be dominated. It's about training, showing a puppy the ropes. How are they suppose to know what to do when people confuse them and then thow them on their backs and yell "NO" at them. Pulleeeeeeze.

Do get him into a puppy class so you can get some help and practice every day a little bit.

If you need some more specific ideas in the meantime, feel free to post again. Please give us an idea of how his day to day routine goes so to come up with some help for you...exercise, any skills taught etc?

 

[bubbatd]

I really don't understand the negativity toward the alpha roll . I did this from week one with my pups . By the time they went home , all were used to be put on their backs without a struggle . If your pups haven't gone through this through socialization , yes , it can be cruel . No animal likes to be pinned down in a vulnerable position .

 

[Spiritus]

The alpha roll theory comes from watching pack behavior. People saw the alpha dog roll the bratty, lower dogs, and decided it was a good idea - if it worked between dogs, it would work between humans and dogs. But it doesn't.

Yes, I believe that dogs should be taught that their people are above them, and that they should accept their people above them (literally and figuratively), but here is why I don't believe in the alpha roll theory between people and dogs.

I have a pack. In my pack I have an alpha male and alpha female (the alpha female is higher than the alpha male). I also had a young, adolescent male, who at about a year of age, decided that just maybe he could challenge the alpha male. They were out playing, and the youngster tried to push the older boy out of his way. Now, I watched the events unfold very, very carefully, as I LOVE to watch my dogs pack behavior....

When the younger dog pushed into the older dog, the older dog instantly snarled/lunged at the younger dog. The younger dog dropped to the ground - ON HIS OWN. The older dog did not put the younger dog there, the younger dog knew he had crossed a line and dropped in an "oh my gawd don't kill me I'm sorry" posture - and did not get up until the older dog broke eye contact.

Now, to a casual observer, this may have looked like the older dog rolled the younger dog, but the older dog never touched the younger one. The younger dog rolled all on his own. This is why I don't believe in the alpha roll. A true alpha roll would be the dog dropping of his own accord at a stern reprimand from it's owner.

I had a young field lab in my last puppy class. This boy was MOUTHY to say the least. I have actually never experienced a dog as mouthy as he was. This dog was always hanging on to some part of his owner. He did this all the time at home too. After several different methods, the one thing that finally worked for him was actually two things.... 1) MORE exercise. 2) They set him up for a few days....

What they did was block the dog into the kitchen. The owner entered the kitchen, the dog latched himself onto her pants. The owner casually detached the puppy from her pants and quietly, without saying a word, left the kitchen. She waited until he settled back to his toys, then entered the kitchen again. Puppy attached himself again, she again removed him and left the kitchen. It took about three days of practicing this several times a day for the puppy to figure out that if he grabbed his owner, she would leave the room. Where's the fun in that?

I, like others, recommend that the rough-housing with the pup stop at least until the pup learns that hanging off the clothing is not acceptable. I recommend exercising him more, and definately get him to an obedience class where he can learn that he has to work for the good things. Once he knows some basic commands, I recommend starting a Nothing in Life is Free program with him, which means just that. You want to play, then sit first. You want to be petted, then down first. You want to eat, then sit/down/sit first. You want to go outside, then do something first - and what is often forgotten - you want to come in, then do something first.

Do a search on NILIF and you will likely come up with several sites that explain this program.

 

[Rokell]

Thank you...

I really appreciate all the helpful input. I'm learning alot here!

Doberluv: I am home all day with him... I play with him, I take him out on car trips whenever possible, we hang out together in the kitchen while I work, I let him out in the back yard often, he plays with the kids when they are home, we take him out for walks....but maybe not as long as he would like.
He is small (7 to 8 pounds) and it is cold here.

He knows how to sit and give paw. He is quite smart and catches on quickly.
I am looking into classes, I just haven't figured out where or if I should take him on my own or with the rest of the family. I also thought I would buy some tapes from the "Dog Whisperer". I've never seen the show but I've heard it is good. (?)

We resorted to giving him little sprays of water and vinegar when he bites us. 75% water to 25% vinegar with a firm "NO" and then praising him for stopping. He does stop. I hope we are traumatizing him, we are just so tired of the nips and scratches from his needle sharp baby teeth. We also have tried to walk away when he bites, but it is not always easy, specially for the kids.

Thanks again! i will keep searching for that right class.

 

[Zoom]

Don't pay much attention to the Dog Whisperer. All he will teach you is how to force your dog to never do anything so it looks like he's behaving.

Grammy, there's a difference between getting dogs used to being on their backs in a comfortable, relaxed setting and forcefully putting them there when worked-up. What you did with your pups was taught them that it's very soothing to be on their backs, lots of love, cuddling, etc. What proponents of "true" alpha rolls do is throw the dog down and hold it there until the dog gives up, with no positives coming out of the experience. Ceasar Milan loves to roll without much of a clue as to the actual psychology behind it.

 

[girlbuffalo1]

With Wrigley when he was a pup and would start to play rough or try to nip we would immediately pick him up by the scruff, say no very sternly, and then give him a replacement toy that he was allowed to play with and we would then stop playing completely--worked very well for us. Also yes no rough play with such a small pup it gives them mixed signals.

 

[Doberluv]

Grammy, Zoom is right. What you were doing was in combination with a happy, playful attitude, not used as punishment. Forcing a pup on it's back out of the blue so the dog feels vulnerable and frightened is a different thing. I roll my little dogs on their backs all the time for a belly rub and just for playing. They're not afraid and they're enjoying themselves. That is not an alpha roll. An alpha roll is used by people who think that they should, by force be intimidating and frightening a dog into seeing them as "boss." I don't roll my Doberman on his back ever for any reason because it appears to be uncomfortable on his back bone and he hates it. So he gets his belly rubs when he is lying on his side.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

One thing I do with all my puppies is teach them body handling. This begins with the puppy lying on it's side, with me rubbing, massaging, and gently and pleasantly manipulating all of the puppy's body. Head, ears, mouth, feet, tail, etc. Most puppies fall into a stupor of ecstasy while I'm doing this. Some need to be reminded with a little restraint to be still. Once I've done one side, I roll the pup over and do the other side.

Puppies quickly learn to enjoy their "massage" time. Then I do this everytime on the grooming table after I grind toenails, which is not fun for any dog, even those trained to tolerate it.

This teaches the pup to be quiet on the table, and makes him well prepared for any type of exam necessary at a vet's office.

Some puppies will struggle a bit in the beginning, but I start early and never have had a single one that didn't learn to really enjoy it.

 

[lovetheratties]

Is it possible to train your dog not to bite without an obedience class?

What kind of excercise do you propose that will make the dog less inclined to bite? When we play or exercise (I consider them both one and the same) Milan gets very bity, I know she thinks this is how playtime is supposed to be.
I've tried ignoring her but she just follows me and attaches to my leg. I also try presenting an "acceptable" play toy, something she can bite but she's usuall more interested in me.

Should I feed her a treat when she chooses the play toy over me?

Is locking her in her crate for 5-10 minutes an acceptble form of "ignoring" after a bite? because I have no way of gating off the area of my house that we spend the most time in, it's to large.