Groomers - do you restrain puppies for grooming?

[dr2little]

I'm having a bit of a "discussion" with a local groomer about what is acceptable as far as handling a young puppy when trying to do an initial grooming. I'm talking about puppies under 5 months of age who's coats are in good condition. Just a first bath and tidy, nail trim..etc..to get used to the whole grooming "thing".
Just curious to know what the general consensus is in the grooming community. How far do you go to "get the job done" when dealing with a puppies first grooming experience? What techniques are used to get a pup to hold still while being groomed?
Please be completely honest. I'm not waiting to pounce, I just want to know if I'm totally off the mark and what I can do in my classes to help make the experience better for both pup and groomer.

 

[Zoom]

I don't actually groom, but I watch our groomers at work. As far as I can tell, they use the normal grooming noose to hold them on the table, then a guiding hand wherever. If the puppy is really squirmy, they might call another person over to help hold the dog still so they don't quick it, but it's not like sitting on them or anything. Just one arm around the chest and one under the belly.

Our grooming room also has windows all along one wall that face the lobby so everyone can see what's going on.

 

[dr2little]

I had a client call me after going to a groomer the other day with her 13 week old giant schnoodle pup. I know the pup to be a dear little middle of the road kind of pup, great with her kids and very quick to learn.
When she went to pick him up from the groomer, she was told that he was a very dominant pup and proceeded to show her how to "handle" his dislike of nail clipping. She got on the floor next to Duke and held his paw firmly while he proceeded to fight and scream. She kept her grip on him until he calmed down and then praised him and let go. She stressed to my client that it was very important that the pup did not WIN.:yikes:
I was more than a little shocked. When I called the groomer, who I know quite well, she said that this was common practice and that the pup needed to know who was boss.
I have to wonder if groomers are taught about fear imprint stages and desensitizing so that the outcome is not terrorizing a pup. I fully understand that they have a job to do but this was the pups first exposure to grooming.
I told the groomer that I would take her out for lunch and I would show her the research and help her to understand what experiences like this can do to a pup. Believe me, I walked on egg shells and did not make her feel like I thought I had the right to tell her how to do her job. I genuinely want to see if there's a way that groomers/vet tech/trainers can work together to help owners to prepare their dogs for proceedures that might make them uncomfortable. Something has to be done so that everyone can WIN......especially the pup.
I just wanted to know if this was common or was this particular groomer doing something out of the ordinary???

 

[Zoom]

I can sure ask our groomers!

 

[PoodleMommy]

Bella (9 weeks old) was groomed the other day, she was a mess, you couldnt see her eyes or feet.

The groomer just cleaned her face and feet for me, Bella was being a bit of a hard patient, so she couldnt get between her toes very well, so she didnt. She grooms Elle as well, so I know she can do the job normally. However, she wont be rough with dogs and especially pups, so she did the best she could for a first trip. I was happy with that, I would rather something not be perfect then you be too rough with my pup.

Elissa

 

[Sweet72947]

I used to work at a grooming place as a receptionist, and our groomers just used a noose to restrain a dog. If a dog was wiggly, somebody (sometimes me) would hold him so the groomer could do him. If a dog was jumping and thrashing and being totally uncooperative, the groomer would stop trying to do the dog because the groomer wouldn't want to injure the dog or herself. There weren't that many dogs that were so bad they couldn't be finished.

There was one time we had to call the owner to come get her dog half-done because he was biting and thrashing and couldn't be finished. The owner looked at her dog, shook her head, and said "that's sad." as if we should be able to finish a biting, uncooperative dog. Yeah it is sad, sad she couldn't teach her dog to accept grooming!

I digress, though. Some places use a contraption called a "groomer's helper" which is a noose with an extra loop for the back end, it keeps dogs standing up for the groomer.

Edit: Oh yeah, if it was a young puppy, the groomer would just use a loose noose, bath and brush the dog, and just do what the dog would accept so as not to freak out the dog.

 

[doberkim]

dr2little, with every puppy owner I get in the room, I routinely go over why I want them to spend 5 minutes each day for the first months of the dogs life handling its feet, its ears, and putting fingers in the mouth - all the pupppies let me do it, and I explain that this will male cleaning ears, teeth, and trimming nails much easier later on in life. i also recommend that each client handle their dogs entire body routinely not just to get them accustomed to it (a well socialized dog used to being handled like this is a vets DREAM!), but it also helps them find anything unusual!

 

[dr2little]

dr2little, with every puppy owner I get in the room, I routinely go over why I want them to spend 5 minutes each day for the first months of the dogs life handling its feet, its ears, and putting fingers in the mouth - all the pupppies let me do it, and I explain that this will male cleaning ears, teeth, and trimming nails much easier later on in life. i also recommend that each client handle their dogs entire body routinely not just to get them accustomed to it (a well socialized dog used to being handled like this is a vets DREAM!), but it also helps them find anything unusual!

I agree doberkim, and most Vets do take the time with puppy clients to do this very important client education. I teach this in my puppy classes too, in hopes that I'm helping groomers and Vets not have to resort to restraining...but it still happens, all too often.
Since I'm replying to you doberkim, would you think that a Vet be offended if a trainer talked to him/her (in a very diplomatic way) about the fact that this method of "winning" with a pup by holding them until they give up, just isn't done anymore, and for good reason. I've watched too many times, puppies in fear imprint stage being horrible frightened all for the sake of a nail clip or minor Vet proceedure. This groomer works closely with a Vet who I've seen use severe restraint with pups and she apparently picked it up from him. His Vet knowledge in her eyes seems to trump my behavior knowledge and I fear offending while trying to help.
I understand that proceedures have to be done and I know that some groomers and some Vets (not all) don't have the time to continue education in behavior, I just wish there was a way to address this without offending other professionals.

 

[mysilverlining]

When I do a puppy for the first time, I always tell the customer that the most important thing is for the grooming experience to be as pleasant as possible. I let them know that the first grooming is to get the puppy used to the sounds and procedures that are used during the grooming process. This way they learn that they are not going to be hurt and learn to tolerate the process. I let them know that I may not be able to do a full haircut the first time around, and actually discourage it, instead just doing a sanitary, the pads of the feet and in front of the eyes getting them used to the clippers. I also tell them it may take longer than expected since I will work slowly with the puppy. I do use a grooming loop to secure the puppy, along with the groomers helper. The puppy, in this way learns where he/she needs to be, and prevents the puppy from falling off the table (puppies can be very wiggly you know). I'm a mobile groomer, so I'm in the position where I can be totally hands on from beginning to end with no interuptions which works well. I speak softly to the dog, praising when doing well, ignoring the bad behavior if there is any.

One problem, as a groomer, that I have encountered is the owner who wants their puppy to look like its entering a dog show, and are disappointed, or downright upset or angry because something wasn't done, even if it was in the best interest of the dog. This can be very frustrating.

 

[dr2little]

When I do a puppy for the first time, I always tell the customer that the most important thing is for the grooming experience to be as pleasant as possible. I let them know that the first grooming is to get the puppy used to the sounds and procedures that are used during the grooming process. This way they learn that they are not going to be hurt and learn to tolerate the process. I let them know that I may not be able to do a full haircut the first time around, and actually discourage it, instead just doing a sanitary, the pads of the feet and in front of the eyes getting them used to the clippers. I also tell them it may take longer than expected since I will work slowly with the puppy. I do use a grooming loop to secure the puppy, along with the groomers helper. The puppy, in this way learns where he/she needs to be, and prevents the puppy from falling off the table (puppies can be very wiggly you know). I'm a mobile groomer, so I'm in the position where I can be totally hands on from beginning to end with no interuptions which works well. I speak softly to the dog, praising when doing well, ignoring the bad behavior if there is any.

One problem, as a groomer, that I have encountered is the owner who wants their puppy to look like its entering a dog show, and are disappointed, or downright upset or angry because something wasn't done, even if it was in the best interest of the dog. This can be very frustrating.

This is exactly what I'd hoped that the groomer I was referring to would do. It must be VERY difficult to deal with unreasonable owners who want the perfect hair cut not matter the emotional cost to the pup. What you described is exactly what should be done and is what I was told was her proceedure as well. I'm meeting with her tonight, I really wanted to know if the grooming community found the positive grooming experience as important as we, as trainers know it must be. Thanks for your post. I wish more felt the way that you do.

 

[RD]

Where I worked, we would not do any "fancy" grooming on dogs under 6 months of age. If we knew that a client had a young puppy, we'd ask them to come in every week just so we could spend about 10 minutes desensitizing the puppy to the noise and sensations of the grooming shop. We put them on the table; turned the clippers on and held the vibrating handle against their body; turned the blow dryer on "low" and dried ourselves so the pup could get used to the noise it makes; handled the feet, ears and face; put them in the bathtub and smeared some kong stuff'n on the side for them to lick while we sprayed water all around them, etc. Once they had a few "social visits" like this, we would do a sanitary trim, clip the nails, do their pads, clean the ears etc. but still didn't do a full haircut until they got older and were comfortable with the basics.

Basically, lots of treats, lots of praise, lots of cuddles and minimal grooming until the pup was comfortable with the entire experience. So many people just toss a pup into a grooming shop and expect it to tolerate all of these strange things being done to it, and then are infuriated when the groomer can't do a good job on the scared, struggling pup. Or, even worse, groomers expect puppies to tolerate it on their first time, and are harsh and mean to the puppies in order to get them to comply. All of the puppies that we socialized wound up happily accepting grooming.

A couple of times we got a puppy that was in DIRE need of grooming (one that got sticky stuff all over him and one that was a pound puppy with dirt and dust caked to her skin) and those ones were restrained and forced to accept a bath and brushing. I didn't agree with how the pups were treated, personally, but I was the apprentice and didn't make the decisions.

 

[dr2little]

Where I worked, we would not do any "fancy" grooming on dogs under 6 months of age. If we knew that a client had a young puppy, we'd ask them to come in every week just so we could spend about 10 minutes desensitizing the puppy to the noise and sensations of the grooming shop. We put them on the table; turned the clippers on and held the vibrating handle against their body; turned the blow dryer on "low" and dried ourselves so the pup could get used to the noise it makes; handled the feet, ears and face; put them in the bathtub and smeared some kong stuff'n on the side for them to lick while we sprayed water all around them, etc. Once they had a few "social visits" like this, we would do a sanitary trim, clip the nails, do their pads, clean the ears etc. but still didn't do a full haircut until they got older and were comfortable with the basics.

Basically, lots of treats, lots of praise, lots of cuddles and minimal grooming until the pup was comfortable with the entire experience. So many people just toss a pup into a grooming shop and expect it to tolerate all of these strange things being done to it, and then are infuriated when the groomer can't do a good job on the scared, struggling pup. Or, even worse, groomers expect puppies to tolerate it on their first time, and are harsh and mean to the puppies in order to get them to comply. All of the puppies that we socialized wound up happily accepting grooming.

A couple of times we got a puppy that was in DIRE need of grooming (one that got sticky stuff all over him and one that was a pound puppy with dirt and dust caked to her skin) and those ones were restrained and forced to accept a bath and brushing. I didn't agree with how the pups were treated, personally, but I was the apprentice and didn't make the decisions.

Thanks RD, your post is very helpful too. Your's is just another post confirming that it can be done this way. It will make my meeting a little easier, although I'll still be walking on eggshells so as not to offend and turn her off to the idea of change.

 

[RD]

I think it's a good idea to be careful when talking to her. A lot of groomers really do mean well but they are accustomed to manhandling their dogs in order to groom them. They are set in their ways, I guess, and some groomers get irritated and defensive when people suggest that they try a different approach to grooming. Being gentler and taking things slowly with pups and young dogs means losing precious time and $$$, and some groomers aren't willing to do that. I can understand from their point of view, too. They are paid to groom the dogs, not train them, but a little bit of training in the beginning makes a world of difference for the lifetime of the dog. They're soooo much easier to groom and it is a relief for the groomer to not have to worry about whether or not the dog will snap at having its nails done, scream about getting its ears cleaned, etc.

I am sure that even charging a bit more money to spend more time training and socializing a scared dog or a young pup would be well recieved by a lot of owners. Some, of course, would not go for it (anything to save a buck) but the ones that care about their dog's experience while being groomed will probably love it.

 

[otch1]

Before opening my own facility, I was the training manager for the obedience program at a #200 dog capacity kennel. The grooming shop was very busy 4 groomers on staff, 2 bathers thruout the week/weekend. Scheduling was "tight" with a quoata to meet by 6pm. Since I groomed for years, while showing, in the beginning of my training career, this kennel would have the "difficult dogs" put on a schedule for me, if my time allowed. These were dogs terrified of clippers, who needed a breed trim, clean feet, clean face or dogs violently protesting nails being done, ect. From my experience with showing dogs, there's rarely a finished (CH) poodle who was a "biter" when the clippers were turned on, or a Ch.Doberman who loses it when the dremel is turned on for weekly nail upkeep. This is because they were properly handled as puppies!! It takes as long as it takes, and in the initial stages of introducing a procedure, you can do great damage to the pup if you are aggressive in your demeanor. One bad experience can set a puppies training back for weeks/months and personally that is not a dog I then want to take to a show and be handled by a judge. While I do want a puppy to respect me, on the table, he has to trust me. Patient handling is the key. Now, I do nails for owners who have in the past, had to have their dogs anesticised at the vets for this. I've done breed trims on Schnauzers, Westies who in the past attacked the clippers. Sent to me for retraining. I've done a weekend clinic for our local grooming school on "Handling and Restaint, yours and the dogs!" lol. Most of the difficult/fearful behavior you encounter in adult dogs while grooming, is due to improper training and improper handling as a puppy. This is not only my opinion as a trainer, but several friends, top show groomers will agree with me. Handle your puppy carefully.

 

[dr2little]

Before opening my own facility, I was the training manager for the obedience program at a #200 dog capacity kennel. The grooming shop was very busy 4 groomers on staff, 2 bathers thruout the week/weekend. Scheduling was "tight" with a quoata to meet by 6pm. Since I groomed for years, while showing, in the beginning of my training career, this kennel would have the "difficult dogs" put on a schedule for me, if my time allowed. These were dogs terrified of clippers, who needed a breed trim, clean feet, clean face or dogs violently protesting nails being done, ect. From my experience with showing dogs, there's rarely a finished (CH) poodle who was a "biter" when the clippers were turned on, or a Ch.Doberman who loses it when the dremel is turned on for weekly nail upkeep. This is because they were properly handled as puppies!! It takes as long as it takes, and in the initial stages of introducing a procedure, you can do great damage to the pup if you are aggressive in your demeanor. One bad experience can set a puppies training back for weeks/months and personally that is not a dog I then want to take to a show and be handled by a judge. While I do want a puppy to respect me, on the table, he has to trust me. Patient handling is the key. Now, I do nails for owners who have in the past, had to have their dogs anesticised at the vets for this. I've done breed trims on Schnauzers, Westies who in the past attacked the clippers. Sent to me for retraining. I've done a weekend clinic for our local grooming school on "Handling and Restaint, yours and the dogs!" lol. Most of the difficult/fearful behavior you encounter in adult dogs while grooming, is due to improper training and improper handling as a puppy. This is not only my opinion as a trainer, but several friends, top show groomers will agree with me. Handle your puppy carefully.

Thanks Otch1...your preaching to the choir:hail: , good to know that you feel the same way.
I specifically used this particular groomer because she attended my puppy school with her Golden pup and appeared to "understand" fear imprint and developmental stages in puppies lives. She acutally said that the reason she became a groomer was because she hated the way the industry viewed dogs as dollar signs.
I asked all the questions before using her and of course she gave all of the right answers. Unfortunately, a well respected Vet "explained" to her that puppies need to know that they can't WIN. Such a load of antiquated gargbage but not unlike the philosophies held by many Vets/Techs/Groomers. Glad to see there are so many that don't feel this way, maybe things can change.
I spend one full 75 minute session in every puppy class going over everything from handling/desentizing and helping owners to prep their dogs for necessary proceedures to minor grooming, nail clipping, teeth brushing, ear/eye/butt cleaning. I need to do more to make sure that pups are not contiunally subjected to unnecessary restraint. I even cover how to talk to the professionals so that their concerns are addressed and their pups are dealt with in an appropriate manor. Owners are often too intimidated to speak up even when they're uncomfortable with what's happening to their pets. It's tough, but when it comes right down to it, it is their dog after all and ultimately they hold the power.
Again, your post just adds to my convictions and my need to do more in both my classes and in trying to help in some way to educate other professionals in the dog industry.

 

[Boemy]

Unfortunately, a well respected Vet "explained" to her that puppies need to know that they can't WIN. Such a load of antiquated gargbage but not unlike the philosophies held by many Vets/Techs/Groomers.

I don't think that's an antiquicated notion. I know from people who have ferrets that if they start squirming or biting, you should NEVER NEVER NEVER set them down or let them escape from your arms until they've stopped struggling. It's not about "dominating" the animal, it's about showing it, "Hey, guess what? Struggling doesn't make me let go, so just stop. NOT struggling makes me let go." If a ferret finds out that biting, kicking, and scratching makes its owner let go of it, naturally it's going to bite, kick, and scratch whenever it wants to be let go. Same with big parrots, you aren't supposed to flinch or show any sign of pain if they bite you.

Now, I do agree that handling a puppy's feet, ears, etc, every day is the better way. I did that when my dog was a pup and could touch any part of her body, brush her teeth, clip her nails, whatever I needed to do. BUT the groomer cannot be expected to train every puppy who comes into them! That's the owners job.

I think the groomer should have advised the owner to desensitive the puppy by frequent handling, but I don't think the groomer was out of line to work on the puppy's nails like that when it was in her shop.

 

[dr2little]

I don't think that's an antiquicated notion. I know from people who have ferrets that if they start squirming or biting, you should NEVER NEVER NEVER set them down or let them escape from your arms until they've stopped struggling. It's not about "dominating" the animal, it's about showing it, "Hey, guess what? Struggling doesn't make me let go, so just stop. NOT struggling makes me let go." If a ferret finds out that biting, kicking, and scratching makes its owner let go of it, naturally it's going to bite, kick, and scratch whenever it wants to be let go. Same with big parrots, you aren't supposed to flinch or show any sign of pain if they bite you.

Now, I do agree that handling a puppy's feet, ears, etc, every day is the better way. I did that when my dog was a pup and could touch any part of her body, brush her teeth, clip her nails, whatever I needed to do. BUT the groomer cannot be expected to train every puppy who comes into them! That's the owners job.

I think the groomer should have advised the owner to desensitive the puppy by frequent handling, but I don't think the groomer was out of line to work on the puppy's nails like that when it was in her shop.

I understand the concept but we're talking about a puppy in fear imprint stage. Unfortunately, this notion of WINNING is all to often used for puppies and fearful adult dogs who are uncooperative too. Using this method for either is about the worst thing that one can do. It teaches nothing except that the fear was absolutely justified and makes future experiences even more terrifying.
The groomer was TOTALLY out of line, no question about that at all. What I wanted to know was how common this groomers misconception of proper puppy handling was. I think that it's absolutely reasonable for a groomer to explain to each puppy owner how to do the work at home to make the next grooming visit more pleasant. After all, they do work with puppies and should understand the consequences that their use of force has on a pu...often for life. It's just plain wrong for anyone to do that to a 13 week old puppy, under any circumstances.

 

[frogger]

Being a new groomer for only a year I can say that when I opened a new shop I got alot of people who at the former groomers there dogs were treated badly. I have had owners call and say that there dogs won;t sit still for the groomers and hate to be clipped. They are very surprised to find out that I had no problems. I take my time and talk to the dog so he/she feels comfortable while in my care. I have had alot of repeat business because of this. When a new puppy comes in I always tell them to play with there feet so they are used to getting there nails done when they see me the next time. I have one terrier that has her nails done every six weeks and hate it. I have to muzzle her everytime or I will get bit. This last time I was able to do both her back feet without the muzzle. She growled but never tried to bite until I touched her front feet. Even then I was able to pick them up and she didn't snap until I tried to drummel them. I have used clippers to start with and she fought those even more. I don't over load myself either. The most I have done in one day is 6. Some were just baths and nails and some were full grooming's. I usually take about 1 1/2 hrs per dog. I'd rather go slower than try to hurry up and make a mistake. I must be doing something right as I have over 100 repeat customers within 1 year of opening.

 

[cindr]

Grooming

Being a new groomer for only a year I can say that when I opened a new shop I got alot of people who at the former groomers there dogs were treated badly. I have had owners call and say that there dogs won;t sit still for the groomers and hate to be clipped. They are very surprised to find out that I had no problems. I take my time and talk to the dog so he/she feels comfortable while in my care. I have had alot of repeat business because of this. When a new puppy comes in I always tell them to play with there feet so they are used to getting there nails done when they see me the next time. I have one terrier that has her nails done every six weeks and hate it. I have to muzzle her everytime or I will get bit. This last time I was able to do both her back feet without the muzzle. She growled but never tried to bite until I touched her front feet. Even then I was able to pick them up and she didn't snap until I tried to drummel them. I have used clippers to start with and she fought those even more. I don't over load myself either. The most I have done in one day is 6. Some were just baths and nails and some were full grooming's. I usually take about 1 1/2 hrs per dog. I'd rather go slower than try to hurry up and make a mistake. I must be doing something right as I have over 100 repeat customers within 1 year of opening.

Hi there: I am happy that you are doing so well in the area of dog grooming. It is hard to find great groomers out there.

I have been in the grooming industry for over 25 yrs now. I have mastered all areas of grooming and most of them show grooms. These grooms are generally hard to do although when you have many pet owners taking the time to listen to the groomer on how to maintane puppy at home things go well.

I do not restrain any of the dogs that I groom. I have a tec next to none and all of the dogs just love coming to me. Mind you when you have the experiance behind you and things go well you will be doing more than 6 dogs per day. I know by my 2nd yr I was grooming 18 dogs per day myself and not any problems arose at any time. All dogs get on the table and off the table in 1/2 hr depending on the groom. It is just fun to know that once you get going and alot more confidence you too will have your hands full. I would start grooming at 7,00 am and done at 1.00 pm. Doggies in and doggies out. All happy and conformed owners too. I am happy that you enjoy your business keep up the good work Cindr

 

[mysilverlining]

I have a question? 18 dogs by yourself 1/2 hr each? This must mean that you have someone doing the bathing and drying for you? I know that it takes me about a 1/2 to do a cut, but the bathing, drying etc. takes additional time. I'm just curious, because I cannont imagine being able to do that many dogs from start to finish in such a short time.