You told me something I was already doing. Engaging in play? What do you think I have been doing. Tugging with him brings out the VERY behavior I am trying to get rid of. What you are telling me is that unless I am training him to do a different behavior I shouldnt do anything to stop the current behavior. So I should give in, lure him into a sit, teach him the command, and then engage in a lot of play and tugging. And then when he latches onto me in play and I cant get him off, to tell him to sit and then engage in more tugging? or tell him to do a hand-touch and reward? Because that is what you basically told me to do.
I mentioned he is over threshold. I may not have tons of experience with shelters, but I do have experience with puppies and dogs, and I do have a lot of experience with issues involving threshold. When a dog is so ZONED in onto something, giving them a command or saying their name could make them lose value for their name or the command. Obviously I dont want to do this, I want to work on disengaging him from the behavior first, which is what I have been trying to do. Have you read control unleashed? It has a lot of information about dogs over threshold and it really is a great read.
Tugging? I love tugging, I tug with my dogs all the time. Tugging with this puppy brings out the behavior I have been trying to work with him on. He snarls and growls when I have the toy and he doesn't. He will bite/snap at me if I go near him after this. I am shaping him, because I want him to come to it on his own.
I am shaping his sit, and I am shaping several other behaviors as well. Can he sit on his own? yes. Could I add a command right now? yes. I wont though, because its not ready. I have also been shaping him to stop biting me. When he releases, I click and treat. I know how easy nose-touches are. You cannot tell me he isn't being engaged or mentally stimulated. I just told you I have been working with him. What I am not doing, is working with him the way YOU would work with him. I asked for suggestions that would help get rid of the behavior. I am telling you what you specifically suggested wont work (I have already been engaging him in play and mental stimulation though, as you suggested. IMO thats a given with any puppy). I am not saying what I was doing was working, only that I know when he is over his threshold asking for a sit wont happen. Sure I can bring out a toy, but what does that correct? That signals that its just more fun to chew on a toy, not that its not okay to chew on me. I get the concept you are trying to push at me, I know about it. I may not have worked extensively with shelters and fostered as many dogs as you but that doesnt mean I am an idiot. I wouldnt listen to your advice purely from the way you suggested it to me by first telling me I couldnt properly train a dog.
What is the difference between the way this puppy acts when I:
1. Roll his gums under his teeth when he is biting me
2. Gently push him away when he has latched onto my leg or another body part and is painfully chewing away
3. Tugging, playing games that appeal to his prey drive
4. removing his jaw from my flesh, clothes, anything at all
answer: nothing. He reacts the same way. He snarls, growls, bites, sometimes barks and always gets frustrated and angry, he has broken the skin a few times by doing this. I just got finished actually having a session with him, and when he started getting nasty because I removed his jaw from my pants, I engaged in a game of tug. It made it worse and he left a bunch of marks on my arm from trying to snap/bite me.
I am not trying to come off as high and mighty, I am not a dog expert. I have owned 3 wonderful dogs who I would not trade the world for. I trained them with clicker training, and instead of ignoring every bad behavior, I addressed them. I have worked through a lot with them. I don't know everything there is to know about training a dog, but I am open minded for the most part and willing to try something that sounds reasonable. If I already know he wont respond, why would I sit there and devalue a command?
Its fruitless to argue about this. If you don't see me playing with him and shaping him as mental stimulation and engaging him than I don't know if I would trust your training opinion. I asked for help and I felt very discouraged by you in particular, you didnt even start off with suggestions, you started off telling me I was doing a horrible job. Oh yeah totally lemme just do exactly what you suggested now.