German Shepherd Vs. Doberman

Doberluv · Sep 3, 2006

I've had both breeds GSDs and Doberman. They're both lovely, loyal dogs. My Doberman stays with me...never ventures off. This is something I love about this breed. My GSDs were quite like that, but maybe not to the extent that my Dobe is. You have to look at what they were bred for....GSDs to herd sheep, Dobermans to protect their master and family. Both tend to be protective of their famlies. But I find in my experience with the breeds that the Doberman (in my case) seems to be a little more velcro, a little bit more "into" his owner. But of course, that's quite a generalization.

American Dobermans are not necessarily neurotic. That's ridiculous. My Dobe is has lineage in both Euro and American lines. He is stable and lovely. So, this discussion is quite ridiculous all right.

tempura tantrum · Sep 3, 2006

In agreement over the ridiculousness of this discussion.

Such far flung generalizations as I've seen flying around here help NO ONE.

Fine to have an opinion, but c'mon- to say that an entire COUNTRY has it wrong and that ALL American-bred Dobes are neurotic air-heads? How much did your country-wide tour of every reputable American Dobe breeder's kennel set you back?

Don't know if you've ever heard of "Indy," but Ch. Royal Tudor's Wild as the Wind was a Westminster BEST IN SHOW winner, with a CDX. No small feat for an American-bred Dobe bitch, being campaigned as much as she was. She was a fabulous family dog as well

And don't even get me started on tying dogs to cars as a form of exercise...

Was there not anyone athletic enough to keep up with the dogs? I'm really not saying this to be snippy or rude, just wondering. I enjoy road-working my dogs, and *everyone* could benefit from a little more running! The human species has just gotten way too lazy as a whole.

And I've worked at the Humane Society more than enough years to KNOW that dogs get hurt and killed this way. Animals who had "done this a million times before, and nothing bad ever happened!" I've met the people who've run over their own dogs- it's a guilt that never goes away, especially since they know that their dog's death was born of their own laziness. Just something to think about. Besides- Dobes make excellent running buddies.

Doberluv · Sep 3, 2006

I love a lot of what American breeders have done for the breed. Personally, I think they've improved them.

Yes, and hiking buddies. I never was so into hiking as I have been since getting my Dobe. I get to see all kinds of neat trails and views. He and the other three dogs have a rip roarin' good time too. It's good for all of us to get some good exercise like that.

doberkim · Sep 3, 2006

actually, Indy ended up with a UDTX i think, didnt she? which includes tracking.

for the record, i also lived with GSDs, and my family currently has two of them

GSDlover_4ever · Sep 4, 2006

Obedience titles dont impress me. Sorry.

And when did I say ALL Dobes where nurotic. My opinion still stands, everyone else decided to disagree. What makes your opinion more valid than mines? I wll always believe that most Dobes these days are crazy, you either agree or disagree, but when you do disagree I have the right to defend my views just as you defended yours. Your opinion is no less or more important than mine.

Doberkim- You seem very immature. Your post was unnecessary and I by no means claimed to know everything.

Pippinislove · Sep 4, 2006

GSDlover_4ever said:

So they can be pets but they aren't pets? What?

That goes for ANY dog - not just working dogs. ANY dog needs to be in a home where the people know how to handle it.

Sounds like he was neurotic!

You weren't talking about Dobermans when you said that, though.

You are very welcome!

tempura tantrum · Sep 4, 2006

Who ever stated they felt otherwise? I never saw anyone say this. Differing opinions don't mean that anyone thinks what you have to say is any less important. Perhaps less accurate, yes, but not less important.

One thing to keep in mind on this thread- opinions are a lot of things, but one thing they AREN'T is fact. And that's an important distinction to make when researching what breed of dog (and then what breeder), you're obtaining that dog from.

Rash generalizations like "most Dobes are crazy" help no one make an accurate decision, because in all honesty, how can you *seriously* prove this to be true? What sort of research (and I mean statistical research...you'll have to forgive me, as a scientist I like more than just one person's opinion), do you have that can back this up? What sort of a litmus test do you use as a baseline for "crazy" anyway? I'd be interested to know.

You know in humans, we're STILL having a tough time deciding what is "crazy." There is no GOOD way to decide, because we don't ACTUALLY know what's sane. Think about it- how do you PROVE sanity? A lot of people were institutionalized in the 60s and 70s that would be considered perfectly normal nowadays. If you're interested a really good book about this sort of thing "Going Sane" is an absolutely fascinating read.

Anyway, I digress...

Sure, maybe you don't think Westminster BIS, SBISS, All-breed BIS Ch. "Indy" UDX is that impressive. That's your perogative and of course you're welcome to it, but she certainly wasn't "crazy." And I have a hard time believing that the majority of ANY breed is filled with "crazy" animals. Sure, there are poorly bred ones (GSDs aren't exactly thriving as a breed either...), ill-socialized ones, animals that through no fault of their own are left to languish in shelters and BECOME neurotic for it, but very few of them can be CLINICALLY termed crazy. That's a strong word- and one that can be applied to few dogs as a whole.

Another thing to think about... how many people MAKE these dogs neurotic by simply being too lazy to get off their duffs and exercise them? There are a lot of "unstable temperaments" out there, that are really a case of an animal that just desperately needs owners willing to lace up a pair of shoes and RUN with them. There are far too many people out there that love the look of a Dobe, but would do far better with a Cavalier or Japanese Chin. If you can't get out there and do it YOURSELF...then either get someone who can to help you, or get another breed. .

I think your post would come across more effectively were you to use a more accurate term.

I'll put it this way: Simply liking GSD temperaments better does not make Dobies crazy. It just means you happen to REALLY like GSDs, and not a darn thing more than that. It certainly doesn't give you any sort of expertise to make such generalizations about an entire nation's breeding program. You don't have the range to be able to make that call. Or maybe you do. If so- I'd honestly love to see the studies (My thesis, after all is going to be about something quite similar, so I'm always looking for more journal articles!)

GSDlover_4ever · Sep 4, 2006

Most hardcore working dogs are not suited for "family" life, with children and stuff. A pet home, IMO, is a home who only wants a dog for the idea of a dog. Take it on walks, go to the petstore with, and can just cuddle. Alot of dogs do not like being cuddled but people insists on it, but whatever. And then one of them get bit and the throw the dog to the curb.

Nope, not at all. He challenged the father, and if the father would have overlooked it, as Caza grew he would have definately been running the household. They had 5 bad kids, and where never home, and they wanted a teddybear. Caza is not that kind of dog. I pet him, but I dont cuddle or hold him, there is no point to that. Thats another thing about pet homes (Rreferring to those who dont know dogs). Is that alot dont respect them. I respect the fact that Caza doesnt like to be cuddled, and you must have mutual respect between you and your dog.

What???

GSDlover_4ever · Sep 4, 2006

Let me just say this. I know what kind of Dobe I am getting when I do decide I am ready. And it WILL be from Euro lines because they are calmer and more confident, imo, dont like it, TOUGH!!!

whatszmatter · Sep 4, 2006

I know plenty of hardcore working dogs that live in the home with the family. Some aren't in the home out of necessity, not enough time to train 10 dogs to live peacefully in the home, but there are many PPD's, PSD's sport dogs, etc that live with one or two other dogs in the home with cats, gerbils, children and birds, although under the control of a very talented handler, they still live peacefully in the home.

SizzleDog · Sep 4, 2006

I'm *in* the Dobe world, and I wouldn't label the breed as neurotic. Out of my two, the only neurotic one is my male, 1/3 "Euro" and was abused for 10 months. He's getting better though, with lots of love and training.

I'm not going to get into an argument on working ability, because so many people refuse to open their eyes to what the Doberman has become - a very versatile dog that can do practically anything - agility, obedience, conformation, bitesport, therapy work, SAR work, service/assistance work, and still be wonderful pets... in the right hands.

As for country of origin, IMO the American dogs in my dogs' pedigrees grounds them, keeps them from being too unbearable. Ilsa's got a dash of SA bloodlines, which are tempered by the calmer, more *stable* American lines... something has to be there to tone down Lex Luthor. Ronin has Eddie to tone down the instability of the "euro" part of his pedigree - I shudder to imagine what I'd have if Ronin didn't have that calmer, more stable influence on his genetics - he'd probably be dead right now, as he's a difficult dog *now*.

That's all I'm going to say about the subject. I've seen both at shows, seen how they act - I prefer the quality American lines. I've seen both in training - I prefer the quality American lines. And I've had elements of both in my home - this is where I say, "thank God for the quality American lines."

Doberluv · Sep 4, 2006

I agree 100% with Sizzle dog. In fact, my dog, Lyric and her Ilsa are quite closely related...have the same bloodlines...very stable, intelligent and sensible dogs. Most people *in* Dobermans recognize the fantastic contribution American breeding has done for the Doberman temperament. And looks!

doberkim · Sep 4, 2006

irony is GSDoglover calling ME immature

like I said, I am done and not responding to a single thing that person says. I'm not going to play games with children.

GermanShepherds · Sep 4, 2006

GSDlover_4ever said:

Do you even know what you are talking about? I have been around tons of American Bred GSD's and Have Never seen what you are describing. Will you please stop giving false and ignorant information? None of my American Line German Shepherds are unpredictable, none of the puppies are aggressive and none have growled or lunged at people or other dogs. I have a close friend who breeds West German Shepherd Dogs and I have to tell you they hardly differ in personality from the American Lines. Personality is developed. I will say that the West German Shepherds are better suited for working but it does not mean that American Lines are Neurotic. They bond and love just like any other dog would.

Sorry If I am overreacting but I love my dogs dearly, and have never seen what you are labeling them as. They have been nothing but loyal and trustworthy and to have them labeled as unpredictable and aggressive is a disgrace to them when they have been nothing but excellent.

Also why in the world would you tether 2 dogs to a car to excerize them? That is irresponsible and dangerous, perhaps you are the nuerotic one? You must be from American lines than, huh?
I also have never had to lock my dogs up from one another, I have 5 German Shepherds and they all get along fine unlike your 2 GSD's Caza and Hondo. Its funny your pointing the finger so well on neurotic and aggressive dogs when your worried about your Pup having aggression problems like your older GSD.

Debi · Sep 4, 2006

YIKES....someone thinks American bred GSDs are unpredictable??? and it's only West German lines that aren't??? now, come on.......that's just not true. it's ok to give heated opinions, but let's not become so dramatic that it's silly. breeding IS major....who questions that?? BUT, it is also how you raise your pup as to how it reacts. breeding is MAJOR....but let's not get really childish about it all. I personally adore both breeds. I've mentioned on here several times that the most intelligent dog I've EVER known was a dobe. ohhhh...she was amazing. my GSD is my heart dog..and I love the breed.....but again, that dobie was the MAX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

comparisons like that just sound so lame to me.

tempura tantrum · Sep 4, 2006

Heck- most people OUTSIDE of Dobermans recognize this!

EXACTLY. Saying that nearly every dog in one breed is "crazy" is like saying "everyone in Oregon is a liberal tree-hugger." Sure. There are plenty of liberal tree-huggers in Oregon (myself included

), but not EVERYONE is. And until you come up with the STATISTICS to prove it, it's a pretty pointless thing to say (unless your real goal is just to **** people off

).

I dunno GSDlover, maybe you think it makes you sound like you know what you're talking about, but in the end the rash generalizations, WITH NO PROOF (and an OPINION is not proof...at least give us some kind of a reason WHY you hold said opinion- rather than just a personal prejudice), only devalue your opinion more. Over-exaggerating things to the point of ridiculousness makes it hard for people to take *anything* you say seriously from then on after.

whatszmatter · Sep 5, 2006

I"m not going to get into a euro or american bloodline debate, but as far as working goes, I have not seen either bloodline very well represented here in america lately. I know a few that DObes are their first breed, but since its been very difficult to find one with the drive and temperment for work, they usually have another breed for working.

Doing evaluations, there haven't been too many that come thru that are suited to do the work, what their lines are I have no idea, I don't follow them that closely. That might have something to do with the popularity, GSD's are more popular and if we had to evaluate every dog out there I'm sure i'd be much more dissapointed in that breed as well.

American breeders have made the temperment less sharp, but they have also affected their working ability IMO as I rarely see one that is still capable. Remember the doberman was developed to be a PPD and being a little quicker to react was a desired trait, but toning that down seems to have toned down the other things as well from my experience.

Doberluv · Sep 5, 2006

ROFLOL!!! LOL! Yes, and it's like saying that everyone in north Idaho is a skin head. Nobody I know around here is...haven't noticed a thing. I think it was a lot of media hype. LOL.

I

Exactly.

What is your experience? They are indeed a personal protection dog. I don't need reminding. LOL. My dog is a marshmellow at appropriate times. He's prevented someone (a "bad guy") from coming in the house three times now in his 3 years of age with his quick, alert action and his keen discernment of what was OK and what was not.

One of the times someone he didn't know was in the house and he became vicious, no biting, but he scared the guy away. My niece witnessed this. It was when I was not home. I do leave my doors unlocked a lot of the time because I live in a safe area in a remote, resort area. These guys weren't really bad guys, but they weren't people he knew and he knew they weren't suppose to be in the house. (long stories)

One of the times wasn't at my house, but my son's apartment when I was staying there. That time we were sleeping and in the middle of the night someone came in. I jumped off the couch, going toward the entry. Lyric was quite young that time and went between me and the guy, vicious, gnashing teeth.....the guy backed right out fast.

The last time, he let the guy be in the yard, but when he came to the door (I was in the shower) Lyric ran up on the porch, sat in front of the door and would not let him close to the door. The guy backed off, and waited back further on the path until I came out.

He just doesn't fly off the handle and act sharp for no good reason. That's the kind of temperament I want in my working dog. He also runs off the bears and together with my male Chihuahua, they keep my property clear of dangerous animals. LOL. (this is true)

I'm sure some of them are less drivin on account of being less aggressive but when a good balance is met...you get the work out of them as well as a nicer temperament. I personally like a combination of Euro and American lines.

In this society, it is nothing but a liability and an irresponsibility to have a dog who is overly aggressive.

whatszmatter · Sep 5, 2006

Well we do protection sports, imprinting for service dogs, and evaluations and private training for those doing PPD. I'm around many that have been in protection sports or PSD's for 30+ years (and do they have some stories on how training used to be). I'm not going to get into it because you're going to get very defensive about your dog, i'm sure he's a fine dog. my point was strictly that in the spirit of keeping a breed a breed the doberman is not what it used to be. You can say its better. Personally I don't like really sharp dogs either, but they weren't developed to be a family, around in society type dog, they were for PPD, sharpness was/is an asset, that seems to be gone as well as some other working traits. Sharpness doesn't equal indiscriminate agression that is always turned on.

A great friend of mine used to compete at very high levels with her Dobe finishing high in trial at many IPO trials and a few perfect 100 point protection scores, but I don't really need to get into her accomplishments here. She loved dobes, grew up with them, but it took too long and was too hard to find suitable prospects, she now trains GSD's and Mal's, if the right Dobe came along i'm sure she'd snatch it up. It's been over 10 years since she' owned a dobe. I trust her opinion very much.

And when I see protection based sports, the Dobe isn't usually at the top. Is it a popularity thing?? maybe. I think one won the DVG nationals a couple years ago, but the majority of dogs on the podium are not Dobes, i'm sure there could be a couple of reasons, but as far as testing them go, I haven't seen many good ones. If you don't want my opinion go to some other working dog forums and ask.

Doberluv · Sep 5, 2006

I believe your opinion as far as far as what you're talking about...the sports. I believe my opinion as far as practical every day living with a Dobe and practical application of what he was bred for. And you're right...I love my dog and the breed. I love GSDs too.

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