German Shepherd Aggression Problems

[DemonicSymphony]

Ok, this is going to be long. I had already been discussing this with Joce on another forum so I'm going to copy and paste a lot of what I said there, to here.

Odin is a two year old unaltered male German Shepherd (Fear not! His appointment to be neutered is next month.) The vet advised waiting because he was a Shepherd and to let him fill out before. She's seen some Shepherds have hormonal problems when neutered young. I've also heard the opposite since then, that point is moot now though.

On with the story.

He had only a 11ish year old boy to play with until he was nearly 5 months old. When we went to pick him up the guy had to corner him to catch him and Odin was terrified. After about a week with us he LOVED us and still does. But he is terrified and/or ferocious with nearly everyone else. It worries me a lot. I don't want my family or friends bitten or attacked and he seems to be getting more viscious when seeing people new or not.

He did bite a friend of ours recently (the whole reason I started the topic elsewhere) However, he DID back away from her and bark as though warning her. She approached again and he bit her hand. It did not hurt her. No blood, no bruise, not even teeth marks. I'm well aware he could have badly hurt her had he meant to. I'm assuming it was also a warning bite.

On other dogs and his behaviour towards them (We are considering a female GSD puppy) It all depends on the dog honestly. Some dogs he does absolutely beautiful with like the one who came over today. Big ol' male mutt wandered up and Odin didn't even bark. He loves our next door neighbors dog and my dad's dogs. (all female GSDs coincidentally)

He hates the other neighbor's chihuahua (but so do all the dogs around here, Commodore is a handful to say the least)

Today he let my brother-in-law, and two nephews play and play and play with him. No barking, no growling, no snapping. He had previously been growling, barking and lunging to the end of his chain at them. (however if my brother-in-law came towards him, Odin ran like all heck)

I was floored when I got home today, both nephews were having a ball with him.

Apparently they have come around enough that he is used to them. They've only been here about 6 or 7 times totalling probably 2-3 hours spent around Odin. Which is far less time than it used to take him to get used to people.

That gives me hope that it's purely a 'stranger' thing and not an 'anybody but mommy and daddy period!' thing

He seems to take to people who have dogs with them when he meets them MUCH better and almost instantly compared to just a person stopping by or something.

Also if he's away from home (out on a walk or a trip to town) he seems like the friendliest dog in the world with a side dish of shyness around men. So I guess it could also be the 'protect the home and my herd' sort of deal. (He is a shepherd after all)


I hope this makes sense. Today gave me a great deal of hope for him. He has a phobia of males (I'm guessing because of the little boy in the family we bought him from)

I've had Shepherds off and on all of my life (Princess, a black Shepherd was my first) but I have never had one I didn't get as a fairly small pup so I'm really unsure as to how to deal with him at this point.

Also:
He apparently hates it here, but I don't really blame him. The people in the nieghborhood used to harrass him (kids and adults would throw things at him because he barked, and even set their dogs on him while he was chained and couldn't get away)

We'll be moving to a 120 acre farm soon, but I want people to be able to come (my grandmother who is terrified of him for one) without having to worry about him getting as riled up.

 

[Jynx]

well it sounds like Odin has had some tough experiences prior to you getting him..I don't know if you frequent the gsd board, but there was a similar dog that I had responded to because "been there done that"..so I will again.

It sounds like Odin suffers from "fear aggression"..I'll try to make this short, I had a GSD, who is now passed, that I got at 8 weeks, way back when I was young and dumb *vbg*..Kodi, had the crud scared out of him by some kids way back when, and also became a fear biter. This dog was no slouch, 32" at the shoulders, 125lb of lean bod. He was fine with "his people" and people he knew, it took me YEARS to feel somewhat comfortable having small kids around (never unsupervised of course),,I might add he never bit a kid, but he was sure scared/unsure of them if he didn't know them. "Men" were Kodi's thing, if he knew you fine, if he didn't, well it was dependent on your approach,,I learned early on to read this dog and what triggered the fear, For example, a male came to the door, (normally your mom told you to put your hand out for a dog sniff?) IF someone did this, he'd sniff , as soon as you pulled your hand back, he'd Snap/bite/back up..IF you totally ignored him, (kinda hard to do with a 125# dog barking at you but thankfully I had many who were willing to do this), didn't look at him, didn't speak to him, just walked in and ignored him completely, he was comfortable with that, and probably end up in your lap by the end of the evening.

He was a perfect gentleman out in public, I believe being on a "leash" also made him more comfortable/gave him more confidence/safety zone type of feeling. He was not big dog aggressive, but didn't particularly care for small dogs,,I ended up bringing in 3 more puppies after Kodi, and he was absolutely fine with all of them, tho I admit I had no idea how he'd react.

So what I'm saying in my experience is, a dog like this has to managed. Know what triggers him, (and it's fear based in my opinion), since he's doing so well with your brother/newphews,,I would KEEP THIS UP! He's comfortable with them, take advantage of it..We are the keepers of our animals, and it's up to us to protect them /train them..IF you think Odin is uncomfortable in a situation, remove him from it, don't "force" him into anything he isn't comfortable with or you'll get a reaction,,build up his confidence by putting him in positive situations.

We all know "crap" happens, but learning to read your dog and management can work..With Kodi, any stranger approaching him was told "do not touch the dog, do not look at the dog, don't speak to him,,IGNORE HIM"..would put him in a comfortable spot that he could live with and so , no reaction.

Poor Odin, sounds like he's had his share of really bad experiences up until now, I'd be taking advantage of situations that he enjoys and keep up those neighborhood walks, I'd also be kicking butt on those neighbors harrassing him.

I'm sure I'm rambling, so that's it.
Diane

 

[DemonicSymphony]

We did try to catch the neighbors in the act, this was over a year ago. We recently moved back to the neighborhood to house sit for my father-in-law and won't be here much longer thank goodness. One of the adults who did it has now passed away. He's also in the back yard over here so that helps a lot and those pesky kids are in school instead of out running around since it's not summertime.

Oddly enough he also does much better INSIDE the house. He may sulk around and hide from strangers inside sometimes, but he never barks while inside with us. Maybe he feels more protected in here?

I didn't know there is a GSD board. I didn't know about this one until a few days ago.

Thank you for all of your advice. I will start looking to see if I can figure out what triggers him other than just 'random new person' or whatever. I had honestly not thought to look at it deeper than 'oh god he's barking his head off at someone again, who's here?'

He stays outside a lot because he gets restless inside with us. He doesn't even like spending the night inside anymore unless it's bitterly cold outside I miss my big cuddle Odin and am wondering where he went.

 

[doberkim]

FIrst two things I would do is stop leaving this dog outside unattended, and get the dog into obedience classes.

 

[DemonicSymphony]

I can see him out the kitchen window. He doesn't LIKE being inside anymore. He whines and whines and whines and paces and is obviously uncomfortable being inside most of the time. Am I supposed to move outside and sleep in a tent beside his dog house and cook over a camp fire so that he's not unattended, ever?

The people problem is over and done with and has not happened since we moved back into the neighborhood. I only mentioned it because it quite possibly (And most probably) has had an effect on how he behaves with new people.

The closest obedience classes are over an hour away. It's just not possible for me to do that right now.

 

[Doberluv]

Once a dog has bitten, it is time for a professional, certified behaviorist to come and observe the dog. It's just too serious and you can't get accurate advice over the Internet because no one can see exactly what's going on. Someone needs to come to your home. Once a dog has bitten, it is much more likely that he will bite again. This is a huge risk and something that you need help with asap. Be careful who you get and don't let anyone treat your dog's issues with aggressive, harsh tactics. Good luck. Let us know.

 

[otch1]

I second doberluvs post. A maturing male GSD that's already bitten and is frequently chained to something, (the first step in aggitation/guard dog training) is an accident waiting to happen now and this behavior should be addressed. If there are no trainers in your area, does your vet have experience in behavioral assessments?

 

[DemonicSymphony]

Not that I'm aware of otch1. There is no way to put a fence up here. He is calmer when he's fenced/loose however, that's just not an option here. We're moving in 1-2 months though to a place he does have a fence and can be loose inside the fence.

This is the only place he's offered to bite, he's not like this out at the other house (Petersburg or Hotrock) Petersburg is 120 acres of running room at the end of a dead end hollow. Hotrock is fenced in on a dead end hollow on 95 acres.

We're housesitting right now which is an entirely different problem all together.

I suppose for now I will lock him in the house and take him out for his normal walk.

Edited to add:
I will be hauling him the hour to classes. I called the (most local) training club and explained, she said to register him for the beginners classes. They have no openings until march but that's better than nothing.

 

[Jynx]

I must have missed where you said he's chained outside,,not a good combo for a gsd,,

My GSD actually was more comfortable/settled whatever you want to call it, out in public (probably less confident, maybe the leash made him feel safer? who knows) than in the house.

I certainly agree finding a behaviorist is your best bet, someone who can come observe the situations and/or good obedience class.

In the meantime, I'll pm you the url to the gsd board, wealth of info there and I'm sure others who have shared the same experience may be of help as well

 

[dr2little]

Not that I'm aware of otch1. There is no way to put a fence up here. He is calmer when he's fenced/loose however, that's just not an option here. We're moving in 1-2 months though to a place he does have a fence and can be loose inside the fence.

This is the only place he's offered to bite, he's not like this out at the other house (Petersburg or Hotrock) Petersburg is 120 acres of running room at the end of a dead end hollow. Hotrock is fenced in on a dead end hollow on 95 acres.

We're housesitting right now which is an entirely different problem all together.

I suppose for now I will lock him in the house and take him out for his normal walk.

Edited to add:
I will be hauling him the hour to classes. I called the (most local) training club and explained, she said to register him for the beginners classes. They have no openings until march but that's better than nothing.

Does the training club that you will be attending have a website? Do you know what methods they use, if they're certified and have experience with fear aggression?

 

[DemonicSymphony]

http://www.hotc.org/

They are AKC licensed. I did explain exactly what had gone on, launched into the whole lengthy explanation that I did here including the bite and that he was left pretty much alone except for the young boy until 5 months old. On the registration form it asks what problems they have and they include people aggression, light biting (which is all he has done at this point), excessive barking (which GOD does he do lol) and wants you to list anything else they have problems with.

My aunt who has two rescue dogs (as in rescuing people not that she rescued them) has recommended them before. I'd actually forgotten about them until I found them on-line again.

THis is the class description that we will be going to

We strive to train you to train your dog. By the end of a 7 week course, you will have taught your dog to:

Sit and stay for 1 minute (Yes, even though this sounds impossible, it can be done.)
Lie down and stay for 3 minutes (This too can be done -- as one instrutor says, "This is easy. Your dog does it most of the day while you are at work".)
Stand when told (This is tough, but vets really love this one.)
Walk without pulling on the leash
Keep from jumping on people (We call this the sit for exam.)
Come when called (No course would be complete without it.)
Instructors and assistants are also on hand to answer any dog related questions and help with problems. We all love dogs and at one time or another were in your position. We had a dog that we wanted to make a well-mannered companion that we could truly love. As a result of our love for our dogs, we now share our knowledge with you so that you too can enjoy having an obedient dog.

He's settled down inside and is actually laying beside our cousin who he usually barks and barks and barks and growls at. She's ignoring him which seems to do the trick, he's not even paying attention to her now.

 

[joce]

I'm glad you found a place It is a pain in the butt to find a good one and hopefully it will work for you. My first trainer ended up being kind of a dud but he was ok with my dog-just did some questionable other things

With him being in he may get to feel mroe part of the pack to and just that little bit may help just to have him feel a little more secure.

 

[Doberluv]

Do you know what their philosophy is on training, what kinds of methods they use? Did you ask them for some scenarios and what kinds of remedies they have....what they do, how they handle the dog? I would be very careful to find out and to observe a training session before you sign up. There are a lot of trainers who do more harm than good with alpha rolls and harsh, aggressive techniques. What did your aunt say about them and their handling methods? What kind of experience do they have in motifying aggression in dogs? I don't know why the distinction between light biting and hard biting. Biting is a sign of a deeper issue and it's the issue that needs to be dealt with, not how hard the dog bites.

He's settled down inside and is actually laying beside our cousin who he usually barks and barks and barks and growls at. She's ignoring him which seems to do the trick, he's not even paying attention to her now.

I don't understand this. Why would you leave him lie close to someone if he has aggressive or defensive tendencies toward? Isn't that taking a risk of another bite? If he's bitten once, he will very likely bite again. I'd be keeping that dog under control until you get help.

It's great that you've found this place, that is....if it's a good place. Just wanted to give you some food for thought. I wish you the very best.

 

[DemonicSymphony]

He's totally different inside vs outside. He was nearly crawling in her lap to get petted by her before she left.

He bit when he felt threatened, he didn't run up to someone and bite them randomly. I think there's a world of difference there. I got bit by my mutt (who is now deceased) once because he felt threatned (he got caught up in the gate, he would jump them) he never ever offered to bite me or anyone else again. I'm certainly not saying Odin wouldn't though.. Which is WHY I'm trying to get him help.
You yourself said

no one can see exactly what's going on.

If I felt he was a threat to Alicia while she was in the house I would have locked him in the bathroom. he barked once when she knocked on the door. She came in, he sniffed and went on his way, he came back, sniffed while she was at the computer and then flopped down. Then later came back and rubbed and licked and got lots of petting from her. She stayed for 3 hours just sitting around and talking and he seemed to figure out she was no threat.

Once he gets used to a new person there's no issue with them what-so-ever. He's seen Alicia several times but has never spent actual time with her before tonight. If he had offered any aggressiveness towards her such as snapping or growling I would have locked him in the bathroom until she left (It's a good sized bathroom and the best place for him if I had to confine him to one room in this house)

I promise I'm really not as stupid/ignorant as I'm apparently coming across as.

Edited to add: I will call tomorrow and ask those specific questions to cover my bases, thank you for them. My Aunt has taken her dogs there for obedience classes before they became rescue dogs and had nothing but high praise for them.

 

[Doberluv]

I didn't think you were stupid or ignorant at all. A dog who has bitten always causes me to distrust them and worry. I just felt a need to reiterate. I have been bitten once before and very badly. I just dread the thought of anyone else, especially a child getting hurt and maimed. I don't mean to come off the wrong way.

 

[DemonicSymphony]

oh!
Alicia is actually bigger than I am, (i'm not a small person either) I'm sorry if I made it sound like she was a small child. She's 16 and knows what happened with Odin and everything.

If she had felt uncomfy even if I didn't I would have put him up.

Edited to add:
Sorry you got bit badly!