Gee, I hate the bandwagon...

Discussion in 'The Fire Hydrant' started by Miakoda, Mar 27, 2012.

  1. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    You know, a radio dj's comments from this morning really struck home to me. Have we, have I, already found this Zimmerman man guilty until proven innocent? It really does seem this way. I'm ashamed of myself because I try really hard to make any decision on an issue after all the facts and information have been presented.

    Now, in light of the new information about the kid, Treyvon, I'm not jumping on the "See! This kid isn't the perfect angel his parents and the media have portrayed him to be, therefore HE is the guilty on!" bandwagon either. The "new information" I'm speaking of is that which details a supposed physical altercation between Treyvon and a bus driver (Treyvon swun at him?), marijuana use and suspension, and the witness accounts that Treyvon did punch Zimmerman (Zimmerman stated such and witnesses have stated the same).

    However, I do find myself ashamed that I jumped on the media bandwagon condemning Zimmerman. I do think that it needs to go through some sort of legal process, but mainly because I believe all parties involved need it.

    I think this is going to be a ginormous 3-ring circus, and I do believe it's going to get ugly. But my other thoughts went to the Duke Lacrosse players whose lives were ruined because the media and general public also found them guilty until proven innocent. :(

    No matter what the truth is, it's a sad ending for everyone.
     
  2. Tahla9999

    Tahla9999 Active Member

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    Due to the fact that I can't help but read every news report on cases that interested me, I couldn't jump on the bandwagon. There were too many holes in the case for me to say with certainty that he shot this kid out of pure malice.

    Now, I have no doubt in my mind, no matter how many black friends Zimmerman has, that he racially profiled this kid. Martin was suspicious because he was black in a neighborhood that did not have many. With that said, I don't believe he killed the kid due to that. In the 911 calls made by the neighbors, you can clearly hear someone screaming in the background. Most people, even some of the neighbors who didn't see anything but heard it, assume it was Martin screaming. When I listen to the call, I really couldn't tell who was screaming, because a grown men could have sounded like that, especially when they are screaming in terror. If it was the boy, then it was plain murder. It would mean that Zimmerman pursued the kid, jump him, and then shot the boy when the boy tried to escape from him. Its possible, but I find that way too odd due to couple of things. Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose. Also, when people came out of the house to see what happen, they claim that Zimmerman said he was screaming for help and nobody came out to save him. And then the 13 year old witness claims to see Zimmerman being beaten by Martin.

    So the other scenerio is that Zimmerman followed the kid and confronted him. The question is, who threw the first punch? It is possible that Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin, and Martin ended up getting the upper hand and started to beat the crap out of Zimmerman, which caused him to scream for help. If thats the case, if Zimmerman was the first to put his hand on Martin, is it okay for him to get away with killing because he got into a fight and lost? The other scenerio is Martin was the aggressor and didn't like how Zimmerman was telling him what to do and attack first. If that is the case, then the self defense would stand, despite the fact that Zimmerman confronted him first. If he didn't put his hand on Martin, then Martin had no right to attack him.
     
  3. sparks19

    sparks19 I'd rather be at Disney

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    :hail::hail::hail: Thank you Mia....

    We were JUST having this discussion last night.

    The guy has basically already been convicted and sentenced to death by everyone and we didn't even have all the information (and still don't)

    This absolutely should go to a trial but now how could they possibly get a jury pool that isn't already tainted?

    We have people talking about tolerance and being open minded and then in the next sentence it's all "Oh yeah that guy is totally guilty and should die" lol What? so much for being open minded

    I'm not saying the guy is innocent or guilty because we just don't KNOW
     
  4. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    Completely agree. This is what I said to my mom last night. How are you going to find an impartial jury now that it's national - and beyond - news..??
    I think a lot of the outrage, though, is because this guy hasn't even been charged with anything and the police don't really seem like they intend to charge him with anything. So it will never go to a jury. The police are acting as the jury in this case, making the call on if it was justified self-defense or not.

    I was reading the news this morning and in one of the stories about this, a commenter linked a story from the UK. In that article they talked about a woman and her roommate who have come forward as witnesses with the story they ran outside after hearing the gunshot and saw Zimmerman straddling Treyvon's body, hand on his back, holding him against the ground... this report is so far missing from the US... a few other details in that story that I haven't read in the US yet, but admittedly I am not reading every single article out there. It goes without saying that we the people don't have all the details. There are lots of details that have been released that maybe shouldn't have been that are adding fuel to the fire though...


    This is complicated by the "stand your ground" law because what counts as self-defense? If you follow somebody and get out to CONFRONT them even when emergency personnel tells you not to, is that still self-defense? And can you make the case that Treyvon himself was defending himself as well..? I think you could argue he thought he was fighting for his life too; but he didn't happen to be the one with a gun...


    My dad asked me last night "If you walked outside and saw a big black man standing in the backyard, what would you do?" And I asked him "That's completely different - if you were walking down the street and somebody was FOLLOWING you for several blocks and then got out of their car to confront you, what would you do?" Because that's what happened here. Personally I would run like hell if somebody had been following me and then got out of their car and started coming up to me!! But then people would say "Well why are you running if you aren't up to anything, if you're supposed to be there? You're not doing anything wrong so why should you run?" I mean, in some of these cases, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing. =/


    Personally I think there's plenty left to this story to be uncovered. But I also think there's a difference between "not guilty" and "innocent..."
     
  5. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    The ONLY person I hate is this guy..
    [​IMG]

    "I am urging the parents of black and Latino youngsters particularly not to let their children go out wearing hoodies. I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin's death as much as George Zimmerman was," - Geraldo Rivera

    um.. I beg your pardon?

    So black and hispanic kids (not white kids, mind you) who wear hoodies .. are totally ok to shoot? thanks to.. an article of clothing..
     
  6. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    I am becoming disturbed myself about how far over the top its getting. I can understand (and confess to participating in) some of the public indignation, though I was more focused on the total lack of an investigation by the police (I also never thought he shot that young man out of pure malice . . . that's not at all what the facts released indicate . . . paranoia and racial stereotyping, yes, malice, no). But the level to which people are getting worked up?

    Now, there is a difference than with the Duke case. There is no question that Zimmerman shot Martin. There is no question that Martin was 100 lbs lighter and unarmed. There is no reasonable question that Martin was engaged in absolutely lawful activity and had every right to be there (so they found "traces" of pot in his bag at school . .. that makes him a dumb kid, not a drug dealer or a thug). There is also no reasonable question that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin and at least initiated the confrontation by following him. Nor is there any real question that Zimmerman was a busybody cop wanna-be.

    In the Duke case, NOTHING happened. No one was raped. The whole thing was made up. In the Jewel case, the man in question had nothing to do with the bombing, in fact saved lives, and was convicted in the press based on speculation.

    In this case, there's no doubt that Zimmerman killed Martin, and that, at least in hindsight, doing so was absolutely unnecessary. However, what we don't know is what actually happened. We've got conflicting testimony about exactly who did what, when, and why. And unfortunately, we have people screaming about what they think happened on both sides, and the press (both liberal and conservative) rushing to judgment.

    All I'm willing to say, especially with the evidence that is coming out is:

    1) It is outrageous that there was initially no investigation. An unarmed man was shot by a civilian. There HAS to be an investigation when that happens. A real investigation, including collection of evidence, drug tests of the shooter, etc. Especially since this happened on a public street. I consider the cops' lack of curiousity in this case to be absolutely unacceptable.

    2) Whether or not the shooting was justified because Martin attacked him and he feared for his life, Zimmerman initiated this interaction. He profiled a kid who was (as far as anyone can tell) doing nothing wrong, he called the cops on him, and he followed him. If Martin responded to this behavior with violence, it might well have been that he was afraid of this much larger man following him. We don't know. But racially profiling people and then following them, when they are doing nothing but walking down the street, is extremely obnoxious, and frankly threatening, behavior. Even if it turns out that Zimmerman was viciously attacked by Martin after turning back, Zimmerman created the problem and started the confrontation by following him, when he was told not to by 9-1-1. For that he will remain morally responsible, regardless of what else happened, and regardless of his legal responsibility.

    Neither the Duke lacrosse players or Richard Jewel did anything wrong. Mr. Zimmerman definitely did do something wrong . . . whether it was criminal remains to be seen. He wanted to play cop and someone wound up dead. If he'd minded his own business, or just called the cops, it is very likely everyone would have survived the evening in one piece. So saying that its just like the Duke case . . . no. Its a lot more complicated than the Duke case, even relying on the facts on which everyone agrees.

    That said, the level of public invective and outrage needs to be dialed back. The man is in hiding. The New Black Panthers have put out a bounty on him. Its insane. They are investigating. The DoJ is watching closely. We'll get the truth, or at least the best approximation we can get under the circumstances. Stop tainting the jury pool.
     
  7. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    Lil, my only comparison I was trying to make to the Duke case is the one of someone being tried, found guilty, and hung by the general public before the truth comes out. Lives are forever ruined by this (not to mention basic reputations).

    I believe Zimmerman should've followed the directions to not follow the kid. If he had just left it at that, then we all wouldn't be having this discussion.

    In this case, I'm not sure there is a total "innocent".
     
  8. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    agreed!
     
  9. oakash

    oakash Kat/Oak AKA The Nice One

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    Yeah, Rivera is a douchbag. But until we have evidence, we can't blame Zimmerman. It's not really like the Casey Anthony case, but just like in her's, everyone knew in their heart and gut that she killed her daughter, but there wasn't any hard evidence.

    I feel so bad for the kid and what his parents have to go through now, an dI can only hope everything gets sorted out.
     
  10. ravennr

    ravennr ಥ⌣ಥ

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    I don't really see it as jumping on a bandwagon when I say I wholeheartedly believe he acted irrationally and should be held accountable. I think bringing up marijuana use is a pathetic way to smear him, and I think the lack of coverage of these alleged injuries sustained by Zimmerman is suspect at best. Of course everyone will come to their own opinion, but mine hasn't changed with these 'new developments'. I read through them, they didn't sway me. I still believe he wanted to play hero, and that's what he ultimately tried to do.
     
  11. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Eyewitness accounts are -- in most instances -- some of the worst evidence ever as far as accuracy goes.
     
  12. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    Unfortunately, due to an apparent failure to gather forensic evidence, we have the 9-1-1 calls, eyewitnesses that can't agree, and Zimmerman's testimony. That's about it.
     
  13. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    You know, I do.

    You don't know the facts in this case. None of us do--it's still fairly murky. Innocent until proven guilty as far as I'm concerned, no matter how much of a lather Jesse Jackson and the media work themselves into.

    BTW, last week in Jesse Jackson's home town of Chicago, 5 people were shot in an hour, including a 6 year old girl gunned down on her front porch in front of her parents. She later died. Over that same weekend, a total of 7 people were killed and dozens were wounded. If Reverend Jackson is looking for a cause to take up I'm sure the people in his own city would appreciate his help to quell the gang violence that has claimed the lives of countless young people like Trayvon.

    Zimmerman should have backed off when the 911 operator told him to, but that does not mean that he was doing anything criminal. IF he did do something criminal, them yes, justice needs to be served. However, people seem falling all over themselves to try and convict this guy in the public arena. No good comes from a mob mentality.

    BTW, did Zimmerman state that he followed the kid because he was black? Do we KNOW he profiled, or are we assuming he did because the young man was African American and Zimmerman wasn't?
     
  14. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    On the 911 call, it sounds like Zimmerman says "f***ing coons."

    So, yes, I suppose people are assuming because it sounds like he used a racist word that he was following him because he was black.
     
  15. ravennr

    ravennr ಥ⌣ಥ

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    We work with what we are given. To say that, in every single case, we have to stand back and zip our mouths shut is against our nature, and just a little ridiculous as an expectation, imo. I've read articles that simply presented what the facts were at the time, not comments from people. I haven't even read articles about the family members from either side, because that has nothing to do with the case itself.

    Jumping on the bandwagon would be, from what I've seen, saying he shot him because he was black. I never said that, and don't believe that. My personal belief is that this man wanted to be seen as a hero, and he got his chance that night. He would have taken it with any person passing by that looked suspect to him, I believe. If that's the bandwagon opinion, so be it.

    Just because I have that opinion doesn't mean I don't think the man deserves a fair trial, though. Of course he does, why wouldn't he? I'm not prosecuting him and I'm not on the jury, but I'm entitled to my opinion just the same as everyone else. We can't all be expected to just keep our mouths shut because there happens to be a bandwagon and because a race war has erupted from this.

    If we walked around every day only giving out opinions on things we have all of the evidence for, most of us would never talk, and ideas would not be shared, and no one would learn very much at all. I've always found that idea to be a little odd, personally. No offense, of course, it's just strange to say no one should say how they feel because some people go nuts with their opinion.
     
  16. Tahla9999

    Tahla9999 Active Member

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    Why in the world would he state out loud that he followed the boy because he was black? That would make him look really bad don't you think! Zimmerman made over 40 calls to 911 in a month before this incident happen as a "neighborhood watch". In those calls that were realease, the suspious people he called 911 on were black.
     
  17. sparks19

    sparks19 I'd rather be at Disney

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    It's tough these days. Everythjng ends up being about racism even when it isn't. Not saying this is Or is not race basex becauseI simply don't know the answer

    But when requiring ID to vOte is racist or when someone is double parked while they chat withtheir buddy, holding up traffic and inconveniencing everyone... Its racist or when the teacher tells a kid to stop being disrespectful and NO they can't go to the bathroom for the 4th time that period.... Its racist

    Its hard to tell real racism from just plain old hard feeling. Some peoe want to make everything about race and others don't want to admit racism exsists at all. It's a blurred line anymore.
     
  18. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    Well, why would people post what they did about Rue's actor on a public site? I didn't know if he had made any statements, so I asked. :)
     
  19. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    Well, the media counts on rushes to judgment and knee jerk reactions. It's not really about keeping our mouths shut, it's about remembering that we only have some facts, and the facts that are being released are often being released in a rather slanted manner. I think the way this thing is unfolding is concerning for a number of reasons. I'm not saying that you can't give your opinion, but I am certainly free to have an opinion on your opinion.
     
  20. Tahla9999

    Tahla9999 Active Member

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    Didn't mean to jump on you. Off topic, about the Rue incident, I think many people see twitter, or at least their twitter, as something most people won't see which make them more open with their views.
     

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