Future Show Dog Breeds?

[Kailynn]

So, my mother has been breeding German Shepherds for the past few years out west in Alberta. Recently, she's decided to move to Ontario, and I'm going to be living her. She's really encouraging me to find my own breed of dog to show, and maybe I'll get into the breeding/showing scene for good. Well, that's her hope. I also hope I take an interest.

Anyways, I don't want to hear about all the hard work it takes to breed and show dogs, etc. etc., because that's not what I'm here to ask. When the time comes, I'll get more information.

As I said before, my lovely mother breeds and shows German Shepherds, and also has a cocker puppy coming in at some point.

I've had my heart set on owning a rough collie my entire life and just recently lost a rottweiler. However, this is where my mother and I clash. She doesn't want rough collies in the house, the grooming would probably make both her and I want to kill eachother. I do not find smooth collies to be very appealing, either, so, another problem.

Anyways,
My interests in dogs?
- Frequent (but not EXTENSIVE) grooming.
- Larger dogs.
- FLUFF 8D
- Good family pets (small children in the family, as well as small pets)
- Herding Dogs. (I've owned a couple in my life, I'm pretty experienced with them.)
- Working Breeds.

Anyways, thank you to anybody who's willing to help me find that awesome breed.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

If the grooming of a rough collie would be too much for your mom to handle in her house.. does she not know how much grooming is coming with a cocker? I have two. I've shown. It's an unending amount of coat and work, far far more than a rough collie would be.

 

[MicksMom]

How about either a Siberian Husky or a Norwegian Elkhound? Both breeds have coats similar to GSDs

 

[Kailynn]

If the grooming of a rough collie would be too much for your mom to handle in her house.. does she not know how much grooming is coming with a cocker? I have two. I've shown. It's an unending amount of coat and work, far far more than a rough collie would be.

I'm not sure where she gets the idea from, because she is an experienced groomer. She had a show cocker before as well, but it died in the hands of Parvo. I can only assume that because she enjoys the breed more, she doesn't mind grooming as much. -unsure-

 

[MafiaPrincess]

That's terribly sad if rough collies might be a breed you'd enjoy. You haven't posted enough to be able to guess your age... Is there any way to learn the show grooming standard and need little help from her to maintain it for a rough collie?

 

[Aleron]

I find it strange that someone who breeds GSDs think Collies might shed too much LOL. Honestly I have had Rough Collie, Belgian Sheepdogs and several GSDs - the GSDs were by far the worst shedders. Collie and Belgian coats shed heavily a couple times a year but even then, the hair doesn't tend to be constantly floating around your house like it is with GSDs. Meeting your requirements of a large and fluffy herding breed without having to deal with grooming/shedding is tricky. What about a show bred Aussie? Most I have been around have good dispositions, still a but more "working dog" like than Collies but still able to be good house dogs and not definitely easier grooming requirements. There are also Icelandic Sheepdogs but they aren't even as big as Aussies I don't think. They seem like really nice dogs all around but they are known for being barkers (course so are collies). Finnish Lapphunds are beautiful, larger, fluffy herding dogs that are known for being excellent with people and other pets. But your mom might not go for the hair.

 

[lizzybeth727]

A rough collie with the right coat type should be very "wash and wear" when it comes to everyday life. Keegan's breeder took two of her rough collies out herding in the rain one night, and they got soaked and extremely muddy as you can imagine. Their coats dried on the car ride home (1 hour, I think), and when they got out they shook out the dirt and that was that. Very much lower maintenance than what you'd think.

Of course before a show there's a lot of brushing and fluffing that has to go on, but like someone else said, overall it should be WAY WAY less than a cocker.

If it's really a breed you're interested in, I'd suggest talking to some breeders and seeing what it's really like to show a rough collie. I can PM you a few names if you want.

The other good thing about collies is that they're SO EXTREMELY versatile. Herding, agility, obedience, flyball, therapy dog, dock diving, search and rescue, nosework, they can do almost everything really well. You don't sound terribly interested in showing, so a collie would give you LOTS of other options of stuff to do with your dog. Collies are also one of the few herding group breeds that don't have a distinct split between "show bred" and "working bred" dogs/breeders.

 

[Aleron]

A rough collie with the right coat type should be very "wash and wear" when it comes to everyday life. Keegan's breeder took two of her rough collies out herding in the rain one night, and they got soaked and extremely muddy as you can imagine. Their coats dried on the car ride home (1 hour, I think), and when they got out they shook out the dirt and that was that. Very much lower maintenance than what you'd think.

I agree with this, although compared to a GSD they aren't really "wash and wear". The shedding IMO is less of a concern with them though.

Of course before a show there's a lot of brushing and fluffing that has to go on, but like someone else said, overall it should be WAY WAY less than a cocker.

Maintenance on a show Cocker coat is definitely a lot less than a show Collie. But day of show grooming, I'm not so sure about. I don't think Cockers tend to have the excessive product use that is common in Collies (hairspray, gel, chalk, make up, etc).

The other good thing about collies is that they're SO EXTREMELY versatile. Herding, agility, obedience, flyball, therapy dog, dock diving, search and rescue, nosework, they can do almost everything really well. You don't sound terribly interested in showing, so a collie would give you LOTS of other options of stuff to do with your dog. Collies are also one of the few herding group breeds that don't have a distinct split between "show bred" and "working bred" dogs/breeders.

To be fair, this is because there are no "working Collies". People do herding and performance with them but the modern Collie has been developed as a show dogs and companions for many, many, many generations. So there's no split because they are basically all show or pet bred when you look at their pedigrees. My experience has been that while most Collies have good temperaments (I rarely see Collies who are shy, reactive, aggressive or other more common temperament issues in many herding breeds), most don't have a whole lot of drive. It's not just Collies, this is the case with many breeds. It just depends on what someone is looking for. As a great all around large family dog that is easy to train, has plenty of energy but happy to chill out in the house too and well suited to being a "weekend warrior", I can't think of too many breeds better than a Collie. For awhile when I was in 4h, our club was overrun with Collies and they were all wonderful dogs that did well for their kids in multiple activities. I have really ideal 4H dogs for many kids. The breed is also proving to be very well suited for service dog work, likely because they do tend to have a much "easier" temperament than many of the other herding breeds and they tend to be so in tune with their people. I think more Collies than any other breed have won "Hero Dog" awards too

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Maintenance on a show Cocker coat is definitely a lot less than a show Collie. But day of show grooming, I'm not so sure about. I don't think Cockers tend to have the excessive product use that is common in Collies (hairspray, gel, chalk, make up, etc).

I know nothing about collies, but daily maintenance and show grooming on a cocker is a load of work. If you care enough they should be daily brushed, washed and blow dried a few times a week, trimmed and re-groomed up a few times a month.

Even eating requires snooding to make sure ears don't get gungy. Most breeders who care about coat minimize carpet in their homes and if crated, sadly crate on wire. It's more work than people would think.



Sadly many cocker people dye their solids with hairdye and bleach dogs with white as even girls can get pee stains. As cockers need to be blowdried the day of show some people do use product to get them to lay flatter.

I have shown and it was damp the days I showed. I was razzed by nasty Ontario cocker people as though I'd groomed him up and blowdried him he was going curly from the damp and I wasn't experienced enough to do more about it. You also need to time shaving so faces are short enough without looking over groomed and backs need to be hand stripped into a nice line with the rest of the floor length coat. Can't be over stripped or it looks bad.

I gave up. Without a super close mentor it is a load of grooming daily not just before a show.

Joys of coat

All food needing a snood even dry kibble as bits get left behind

Mine even without confo have more coat than most people I meet. Sadly even now, not being floor length hikes are a pain as they involve serious deburring. Anything off leash when I cared about his coat was a nightmare.

As a reference the above pics of Smudge looking wavy.. doesn't fly in the ring. They need to be far straighter like this in the ring to win anything..

 

[Aleron]

I know nothing about collies, but daily maintenance and show grooming on a cocker is a load of work. If you care enough they should be daily brushed, washed and blow dried a few times a week, trimmed and re-groomed up a few times a month.

Sadly many cocker people dye their solids with hairdye and bleach dogs with white as even girls can get pee stains. As cockers need to be blowdried the day of show some people do use product to get them to lay flatter.

I work in a grooming shop, so I have some idea of the work it takes to keep dogs like Cockers maintained. It does sound like the daily maintenance of keeping a Cocker in show coat is more work than that of a Collie but the Collies are more work with day of show prep. Dying dogs is definitely not limited to Cockers and definitely found in Collies too. The black on tri-colored Collies can be "enhanced", the tones of sables can be made more pleasing, etc. With day of show prep with Collies, you have fluffing with a dryer and product, chalking, back brushing and applying hairspray to get the coat to really stand out, applying make up to sables to create a certain look in the head, applying gel to the legs to make them appear thicker, etc. It isn't unusual for Collie people to spend hours prepping their dogs for the ring at a show. I'm not sure I'd want to show a Rough Collie and I'm currently showing a Sammy (which is definitely more work than my Belgians!).

And as a side note - I soooooo wish pet people would use snoods on their Cockers!

 

[lizzybeth727]

I'm not sure I'd want to show a Rough Collie and I'm currently showing a Sammy (which is definitely more work than my Belgians!).

Why not a smooth collie?

 

[mrose_s]

Australian Shepherd? I don't particularily like the look of the show lines but they fit the bill.

 

[Aleron]

Why not a smooth collie?

I actually originally had wanted a Smooth but got a Rough. I still prefer Smooths, actually even more so as the show bred Roughs get hairier and hairier. I like the sleekness of them

So far I have only found one breeder I really want a dog from though and they are in Europe: About Us There doesn't seem to be any US breeders who have the same type of dog as this breeder. Not only in temperament but I love the look of these Smoothies especially the more classic, less extreme heads/eyes. I am curious how one would do in the ring in the US but I suspect not very well. At judges education seminars, Collie judges-to-be are told that they should reward head type (the modern, extreme head type) over structure every time. "75% of your judging should be concerning the head". And every year the National logo seems to portray Collies who almost appear to have almost no eyes, which is just...weird:

Perhaps one day I will import a dog from Nirreterrit

 

[lizzybeth727]

So far I have only found one breeder I really want a dog from though and they are in Europe: About Us There doesn't seem to be any US breeders who have the same type of dog as this breeder. Not only in temperament but I love the look of these Smoothies especially the more classic, less extreme heads/eyes.

I know what you mean, I'm incredibly picky when it comes to the look of the smooth collies. Movement is more important to me than looks, too, I LOVE a dog that appears to be floating around the ring. That's my biggest peeve with the breed right now, they're so clunky in the show ring.

I'll PM you a few breeders that I really like, maybe you'll like them too.

 

[Aleron]

I know what you mean, I'm incredibly picky when it comes to the look of the smooth collies. Movement is more important to me than looks, too, I LOVE a dog that appears to be floating around the ring. That's my biggest peeve with the breed right now, they're so clunky in the show ring.

I'll PM you a few breeders that I really like, maybe you'll like them too.

Thanks! I'm always interested in looking at Collie breeders. I just got a PyrShep, so a Collie would not be an option for a long time now but it's a breed I still find myself keeping up with

The structure in Collies right now overall is just....bad. That's what happens when you tell judges they should reward head type over everything else. I constantly see sway backed, straight fronts and poor rears in the breed at shows - even in the group ring! And I just can't get into the modern heads on them, both the general shape and the eye placement/size. I don't dislike Collie heads, I just dislike the modern extreme version of them.

 

[colliewog]

I actually originally had wanted a Smooth but got a Rough. I still prefer Smooths, actually even more so as the show bred Roughs get hairier and hairier. I like the sleekness of them

So far I have only found one breeder I really want a dog from though and they are in Europe: About Us There doesn't seem to be any US breeders who have the same type of dog as this breeder. Not only in temperament but I love the look of these Smoothies especially the more classic, less extreme heads/eyes. I am curious how one would do in the ring in the US but I suspect not very well. At judges education seminars, Collie judges-to-be are told that they should reward head type (the modern, extreme head type) over structure every time. "75% of your judging should be concerning the head". And every year the National logo seems to portray Collies who almost appear to have almost no eyes, which is just...weird:

Perhaps one day I will import a dog from Nirreterrit

Those images are taken from top winning dogs, so the artist is just copying what she/he sees. But, yes, that's what the majority of your top winners will look like. I prefer a more refined dog with a true medium, obliquely set, almond-shaped eye (those aren't medium and those aren't almonds), but I don't do AKC confo anymore, only UKC. They reward movement and structure over the head every time. Several group placements and a chance at BIS with a bitch that only has one AKC major to her name (given to her by an "old timer" all-rounder judge).