Frusterating Play with Puppy

[OsaBarbosa]

We got Osa who is a lab/boxer mix 5 weeks ago when she was roughtly 12 weeks old. I am not sure what we did wrong when we initially trained her on biting but now when she gets really playful, she growls, nips and tries to bite our ankles and feet. We started to flip her into submission which helped with the actually biting but now show just runs around us growling and nipping. We can get her to stop and sit most of the time but when she does, as soon as we move, she starts again. We are trying to get her to calm down and chew on something else but that isn't the case. Its worse when my wife and I are out playing with her together. I can usually get her to stop fairly quickly and start playing with the ball but she seems to like to do it more to my wife. It seems like she loves to see us "dance". What can we do to get her to stop? It gets incredibly frusterating when we try to play with her.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

 

[Zoom]

Part of it is being a puppy, part of it is her age and part of it is her breeds. Labs are very mouthy and Boxers have an innate love of playing rough.

Stop flipping her over. That's not going to do anything to calm her down, it will instead do the opposite. Ceasar Milan has done more damage to more dogs lately with his stupid revival of alpha rolling. This will also most likely get you actually bit once she gets bigger.

If she can't calm down when you say, all play stops. Immediately. Pick up the toys and walk away. No playing for at least five minutes. Then try again, but at the first sign of her getting out of control, the game stops for the rest of the night. If need be, put her in her crate (if you have one) or in the bathroom if she keeps jumping on you or refusing to quit.

For general nipping, I find that going "OUCH!" in a really hurt sounding and high-pitched tone helps quite a bit. First off, it's a noise they understand from their littermates. Second, it will startle most dogs long enough to stop nipping, at which time you can praise them and/or give a small treat.

Puppies are kind of rough at this stage anyway, they're starting to grow up a little and get an awareness of the things around them and gain more independence.

 

[Doberluv]

Stop flipping her over into submission or you'll ruin your dog. Don't get into a power struggle and put her on the defensive....worst thing you can do to a dog.

What kind of play are you doing with her? How much exercise is she getting during the day...how often? When she is biting and growling, she is playing the way dogs play. The best way to teach her that it doesn't work with humans is to end all play immediately. Ignore her completely. No speaking to in any way, no looking at, no nothin. Walk away and end the playtime for a couple of minutes. Then try again. IMMEDIATELY, if she nips again, walk away again. If she chases after you and bites, put her in a place by herself for just a minute or two, calmly, non-emotionally. Just do it as a matter of fact. Don't give her a time out for longer than one or two minutes. Give her lots of opportunities to try again. The more times she succeeds at playing gently, the quicker she'll learn. If she mouths ever so gently, continue. It's good for her to learn to regulate her bite. Do not play roughly with her and entice her. Play games where she's not apt to use her teeth on you, such as fetch, hide and seek, find a treat, give and take a toy (trade for a treat).
Is she learning how to fetch or chase a frisbee? That's always a good game and good for getting the pent up energy out.

She needs an outlet and that comes in the form of exercise, appropriate games and obedience training. (mind exercise)

 

[Doberluv]

Was typing when you posted Zoom. LOL. (no kidding about Cesar Milan. He's really set dog training back into the dark ages)

 

[TheCasa]

Was typing when you posted Zoom. LOL. (no kidding about Cesar Milan. He's really set dog training back into the dark ages)

So is it general consensus on this board that Cesar is not helping our cause, or is it just the submission thing?? He seems to know what he's doing and gets good results from what I've seen. Of course, who would put failures on their tv show. lol.

 

[Herschel]

He seems to know what he's doing and gets good results from what I've seen.

He doesn't know anything about dog training or dog behavior. He knows about suppressing behaviors so they don't show up on a t.v. show, but they will come up later when the dog will be far more dangerous. He has never had any formal training and uses archaic techniques. General consensus here is that he has a couple of good points, but they've already been made by other people.

 

[mjb]

Believe me, I had a puppy biter. It was hard to walk through the kitchen, where he was gated off for potty training purposes, without being attacked the entire way! The neighborhood kids, and ours to some extent, were afraid to walk through there!

I just wanted to suggest a game that we used to play with this set of teeth that was commonly called a puppy. We used 3 empty 2-litter plastic Coke bottles. One of us would start kicking one, and the puppy would run over to grab it. Rather than 'fight' him for possession, we would then run to another one. As soon as we started kicking it around, he would run for the one we had, and we would move to the next one..........and so on. The bottles make alot of noise rolling around on the kitchen floor. This is a VERY active game and wears the little buggers out. And best of all, our children could play this game with him and interact with him with no teeth at all!!

 

[Doberluv]

So is it general consensus on this board that Cesar is not helping our cause, or is it just the submission thing?? He seems to know what he's doing and gets good results from what I've seen. Of course, who would put failures on their tv show. lol.

His first and formost mistake and the whole folcrum from which he bases all of his "methods," is wolf pack behavior, which (and this is important) he's got wrong anyhow. Domestic dogs are sooooooo not wolves. Humans are so not wolves and he pretends that we have to act like wolves. He claims to know what wolves do to eachother and in what instances. According to the world's leading wolf experts, he's got it all screwed up the way wolves behave. That's the first problem. Then he applies it to the domestic dog. Now he's really gone off the deep end with that. He reads body language incorrectly in most instances. He doesn't see when a dog is stressed. And the dogs he works with show stress, unquestionably. Behaviorists and scientists, experts in domestic dog behavior see him as setting dog training back 20 years...see him squashing dog's behavior, supressing it, flooding the dog with stressful stimuli and doing nothing to train or condition a dog properly. Most of the dogs I have watched on his show are showing definite stress signals, which may not be apparent to lots of TV land watchers, but are to people who have had a lot of experience with dogs and have really studied the whole thing.

There's a huge difference in merely stopping a behavior temporarily and stopping the underlying cause of the behavior through desensatizing. He has no schooling whatsoever in animal behavior. He's just made up a lot of this stuff based on old school, disproven wolf studies.

The things he says that are agreed on are nothing new, nothing he came up with and in many cases common sense, such as; dogs need exercise, (although they don't need the excessive amounts he prescribes, like 6 hours a day) and dogs need boundaries and rules. So what? It's how this is done which makes the difference between experienced and educated behviorists who understand canine behavior and Hollywood schmooze.

 

[Doberluv]

I just wanted to suggest a game that we used to play with this set of teeth that was commonly called a puppy. We used 3 empty 2-litter plastic Coke bottles. One of us would start kicking one, and the puppy would run over to grab it. Rather than 'fight' him for possession, we would then run to another one. As soon as we started kicking it around, he would run for the one we had, and we would move to the next one..........and so on. The bottles make alot of noise rolling around on the kitchen floor. This is a VERY active game and wears the little buggers out. And best of all, our children could play this game with him and interact with him with no teeth at all!!

That sounds like a great game mjb. I use to use a liter bottle for Lyric to play with. He loved it, but I never did that game with 3 of them. Sounds like fun for both puppy and kids. LOL.

 

[OsaBarbosa]

Thanks for the help. We take her to a puppy training class and they actually told us to flip her. We haven't done it in a while though. She is getting a lot of exercise, we have a large fenced in yard where she loves to play. We try to stop playing as soon as she does it but if you try to walk away, she will follow and nip or start running around your feet. She usually will start the behavior when we are playing fetch, she will run out and bring back the ball a few times and then she might come back, drop the ball and go straight into the nipping etc. She loves when we have pants on because then she will grab the pants and not skin. We are trying to be patient.

 

[Doberluv]

Not all trainers are wise. There are trainers that come a dime a dozen and it's prudent to check out their background. You don't know how many dogs are mistreated by so called "trainers." If your trainer is promoting the alpha roll, as in punishment and domination, I'd run, not walk. If she means to gently roll the dog over as in play, give belly rubs etc, that's something different. What else does this trainer tell you to do to your dog? Please be careful.

 

[malndobe]

The best way to teach her that it doesn't work with humans is to end all play immediately. Ignore her completely. No speaking to in any way, no looking at, no nothin. Walk away and end the playtime for a couple of minutes. Then try again. IMMEDIATELY, if she nips again, walk away again. If she chases after you and bites, put her in a place by herself for just a minute or two, calmly, non-emotionally.

Both of the posts about playing with your pup were great, but I'm going to pick out this one part.

You know your pup likes to play rough. So you know there will be some nipping before you get this under control. Puppy teeth are SHARP and if you flinch when she bites, she has gotten a reaction. A FUN reaction. It's not being mean, it's just puppy play, but you flinching, dancing around trying to get away, etc are all FUN FUN FUN. So set things up so you can ignore her. Wear heavy athletic socks under jeans. Put on some of those tall black rubber boots. Wear a jacket, some leather work gloves, etc. IE put on items that even when she latches on, you can just look at her with a "hey, that doesn't hurt in the least, not getting a reaction from me" look.

This makes the "no reaction, just walk away" technique MUCH easier. Eventually she'll figure it all out, and you can be back in shorts and bare feet soon.

 

[Doberluv]

I think looking at her is a reaction. I wouldn't wear those clothes in the summer months here where I live (90 + degrees) if someone paid me. LOL. End the fun. Make it impossible for her to continue the hard biting by leaving the area. If she follows you around, put her in her crate, not in a punishing way, but like, "Ok.....fun time over." Also, more exercise, physical and mental to re-direct her. Begin teaching her sit and come and reinforce her for that. Give her a good, hard teething toy and praise/treat her when she chews on that. Show her what works and what doesn't. It's true....it takes time for puppy to grow up. Bite inhibition is really important so let her mouth if it's very gentle. She can learn to regulate the pressure that way. She had a start with her littermates, but the lessons continue with her human family.

 

[OsaBarbosa]

Last night I did the completely ignore thing. As soon as she started to get hyper and "play" with my feet/legs, I just completely stood still and ignored her. We figured it out a few days ago that she enjoyed watching us "dance". The good thing is is that she isn't biting, she will have her mouth open but no biting. She will only start chewing on none skin items (i.e. shoes, socks, shorts). If she latches onto our pants, we tell her off which she does well and then just freeze. She figured out fairly quickly that wasn't much fun and moved onto other things. We just set up a play area in our basement (to get out of the 100 degree heat) where we can play with her and if she gets playful with us, we can easily just step out of site. We will see how this goes.

P.S. We are no longer flipping.

 

[Zoom]

Sounds good! keep us updated!

 

[Charliesmommy]

Last night I did the completely ignore thing. As soon as she started to get hyper and "play" with my feet/legs, I just completely stood still and ignored her. We figured it out a few days ago that she enjoyed watching us "dance". The good thing is is that she isn't biting, she will have her mouth open but no biting. She will only start chewing on none skin items (i.e. shoes, socks, shorts). If she latches onto our pants, we tell her off which she does well and then just freeze. She figured out fairly quickly that wasn't much fun and moved onto other things. We just set up a play area in our basement (to get out of the 100 degree heat) where we can play with her and if she gets playful with us, we can easily just step out of site. We will see how this goes.

P.S. We are no longer flipping.

Yea! When this happens, be sure to praise, praise, praise!

 

[Doberluv]

Yes, a treat, treat, treat. "Hey, when I don't bite, look what happens! Wooo hooo!"

It sounds like there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[OsaBarbosa]

MJB - thanks for that game idea. We played that last night with a couple of her favorite toy balls and she loved it. Whenever she would bring one back we would toss out the other one and she would drop it at our feet and go chashing the other one. It was great fun.

 

[LuvsDogs]

Glad to hear your starting to have progress. Keep up the good work & if you have any more problems I'm sure you'll get help here. She seems like a smart dog.