Food Aggression and Introduction

[Thea]

Hi There,

My name is Thea and I joined this group for a specific problem. We adopted a 7 year old Pyrenese/collie mix about six months ago. Truman was an unneutered, not housebroken, underweight dog that was brought into the shelter as a stray...He has come so far in so many ways in the six months since he's moved into our hearts and lives. He really is such a great dog - just so grateful for every tidbit. Anyway, he's a tad aggressive where food is concerned. I'm heavily involved in parrot rescue and their behaviors, and I've sort of been applying the same theories to Tru. Every behavior has a consequence and the only way to change a behavior is to change the consequence TO the behavior. Right? So, here's what's been happening:

A - Truman is eating his bone on his bed in the family room
B - husband walks in, Truman growls.
C - Husband removes the bone and throws it out.

I asked my husband what he thought he just taught Truman, and my husband (who has been bitten by Tru at least SIX times) said that if Truman growls, he loses his bone. *I* said "really? because I think you just taught him that since growling obviously doesn't work, maybe biting will the next time." So, this is what we've been doing now. Truman can no longer have anything that cannot be eaten immediately. My husband has been handing him little treats...things that can be eaten in under a minute, hopefully taking the need to guard his stuff away. My husband has also been giving lots of praise and more food rewards to Truman for taking the food and eating it without growling.

I don't want you to think my husband is rough with Tru...he's not. Just the opposite in fact...I think he trusts Truman way too much. I sort of feel that Tru may never be 100% trustworthy where food is concerned, and I think that maybe the best way to go about it is to just not put Truman in a position to fail.

Whatcha think?
Thea

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

I wouldn't give him chews if he nips/bites/growls etc. at you. That's unacceptable IMO and from what you're saying, chews cause him to become aggressive and protective over the chew.

 

[Love4Pits]

Personaly I think your doing a good job so far with the new idea of just giving Tru litle treats he can have and eat quickly. I surprisingly enough consdiering my job have yet to run into real food aggression problems. But even though I havent I still am very cautiouse when its feed time around here I take no chances. So yeah I think your doing good so far. There's other people on here though likt "CreatureTeacher" who could probley give you a better more professional outlook on it all. but good luck with your dog sounds like a beautiful mixbreed

 

[Thea]

Thankyou both. He really is a glory and a wonder. But, he's got some baggage. We expected baggage. We'll get thru it...I just want to make sure I'm on the right track. About two weeks ago Truman was chewing on something, and my husband walked into the house...Tru gets up, BRINGS the bone to Vin. Vin is standing next to Tru, and Tru does the whole pet me lean. Vin pets him. Truman bites. HARD. I mean he's bitten hard several times...never bit me, but has bitten Vin. It's like he sends such mixed messages sometimes...Truman, not my husband. He wants to play and such, but then it's like he doesn't quite know how to handle it, if that makes any sense. Almost like a cockatoo on overload...and that is NOT fun.

ANY advice will be gratefully accepted, and followed.
Thea

 

[poodlesmom]

Perhaps a good command to teach him would be "drop" whether it is a toy, a bone or something he shouldn't have. In the beginning, using other treats, once he drops treat him. Then occasionally instead of treating, initiate a play session. That way perhaps he'll learn that losing something isn't necessarily a bad thing - that there are "good" consequences.

It sounds as tho you are doing a great job & three cheers to your hubby for being so understanding of Tru's issues and being willing to work through them!

 

[Sakasha]

Hi Thea! Welcome to the forum!

After going through a severe food aggression problem with my own dog, I think I might be able to help you out with Truman. Dutch was horrible when he was younger. Food agressive, bowl possesive, toy possesive. And yes, he also bit to "protect" what he wanted. His most severe insident was with a woman who needed 7 stiches after trying to take a pigs-ear away from him. He was 11 weeks old, and he kept the pigs-ear.

I worked with Dutch for almost 5 months at the shelter, and I have now had him home for just about 6 months. I can stick my hands in his food bowl, touch his face as he eats, he drops all toys on command, and I have no problem picking them up from directly underneath him. He gives up rawhides and peanut butter filled kongs without protest. I trust my dog completely. But it took a lot of work to get him to this point.

If there is one thing I have learned, it is that you should never take away what a possesive dog wants. By removing his food/toy/bone when he growls, you are giving him a reason to gaurd. He will soon learn that whenever you come around, his things are taken away, so he will do whatever it takes to stop you. As you have seen with Truman, they will even bite. What you need to do is build trust with Truman. You don't want to take his toys, you want him to give them to you. That is the ultimate achievement with a possesive dog.

Does Truman also growl if you/you husband approach his food bowl? Or does this only happen when he has a bone? I could go on forever with advice, but if I have a few more specifics to go on, you won't have to go through a mile long post to get the advice you need.

 

[Thea]

Hi Sakasha,

Yes, I think you probably CAN offer some advice and guidance. I'm very impressed with what you have accomplished with your dog.

Truman is mostly possessive of food, but he is now eating with our other dog, Willow (collie), and our cat, Oreo. He no longer tries to take their food away. If I walk near his bowl, he doesn't growl, but then again, I've never taken anything away from home. I'm very consistent with Tru...for instance, I will not, EVER, play tug of war. I will not play catch unless he drops the ball in my lap, and he does. All the time. He will even go get a bone, and lay on my feet as he's eating it...if someone else walks into the room, besides my husband or I, he will generally get his treasure and come stand by me..almost like he looks to me to protect? Ya think?

The problems is mostly, I think, that my husband adores this dog so much, that he wants to trust him as much as Willow. That is just not smart, in my opinion.

We had company the other day, and lots of goodies were all over the place. I wanted to put Truman in the bedroom. I do not trust him. I especially do not trust him with strange people and lots of food. So what happened? SOMEBODY gave him something to eat, then tried to pet him, and he jumped up and nipped. NOT a severe bite like he used to give...but still. Bad enough. My husband tho, insists that Truman is part of the family, and the only way he's going to learn manners is to allow him out and about. And I sort of get where he's coming from. I think part of the problem is that my husband never had animals before he met me...and, living with 8 parrots has made him very accepting of bites. I don't think that Vin takes Truman's biting as serious as he should...there is a HUGE difference between a parrot biting and a dog biting.

What do you think we should do to get Truman more socialized when food is around, but still keep everybody safe?

What about crating him in the family room with company? I've never crated a dog, but I've never had one quite like Tru either..

We WILL make this work. Giving Tru up is not an option, so we gotta make it work and keep everybody, including Tru safe. Truman is VERY upset after an incident - I'm sure he picks up on our stress and then he feels stressed. The last thing I want to do is cause my boy stress...

Thanks again!
Thea

 

[Thea]

Perhaps a good command to teach him would be "drop" whether it is a toy, a bone or something he shouldn't have. In the beginning, using other treats, once he drops treat him. Then occasionally instead of treating, initiate a play session. That way perhaps he'll learn that losing something isn't necessarily a bad thing - that there are "good" consequences.

It sounds as tho you are doing a great job & three cheers to your hubby for being so understanding of Tru's issues and being willing to work through them!

Thanks! I think the DROP idea is a good one...I do not think he'll listen when food is involved tho. I had an incident last week with a chicken bone. He won.

But, I'm gonna start doing it with toys and treating. He's SO food motivated that training him is pretty easy. For instance, he's totally housebroken. HOW great is that?!?!? A 7 year old that never lived in a house...and he never misses. We're also to the point where we can walk on the beach without a leash.. It's a private beach, and there's no way off of it unless he goes THRU me, but he's listening so well. It's like he doesn't want to get too far away from us. So, he has made such HUGE progress in all aspects of our life, but this is the most serious problem. I cannot have a 75 pound dog biting people because they dared to walk past him with a piece of cheese in the room.

Thea

 

[smkie]

YOu said your dog had some baggage? I don't know if this pertains or not. We lost our cat (kitten) fro 12 days. She had run down the street and was in a house where a man had committed suicide. apparently she was locked in by somone that had come in to clean up. She went 12n days without food,obviously she had access to water, probably the toilet. When she got home, so skinny it hurt to look at her, (we had signs posted and someone had opened up the house and found her) she hoarded food, acted panicky if anyone approached, growled warnings. I let her have as much as she wanted and kept everyone away. She hid food even after she was full. I have read stories where people that have starved have done the same thing. Eventually that faded. I do think it is a big mistake for your husband to take the bone away, I think that only confirms the dog's worry in the first place and makes your husband seem aggressive to the dog. I think you need creature teacher in on this one.....I am just putting my thought in to it as well. This kind of biting is a big nono though and you have to find an answer quickly. A muzzle sounds mean but being dog bit hurts so bad, and if it is in the hand can do permanant damage. I think you are on the right track having the man spend special time with the dog, and possibly have him be the one to feed at regular meal time as well. THat will not insure that the dog will not bite a visitor in the same situation. I wish you tons of luck at finding a solution as quickly as possible.

 

[Thea]

YOu said your dog had some baggage? I don't know if this pertains or not. We lost our cat (kitten) fro 12 days. She had run down the street and was in a house where a man had committed suicide. apparently she was locked in by somone that had come in to clean up. She went 12n days without food,obviously she had access to water, probably the toilet. When she got home, so skinny it hurt to look at her, (we had signs posted and someone had opened up the house and found her) she hoarded food, acted panicky if anyone approached, growled warnings. I let her have as much as she wanted and kept everyone away. She hid food even after she was full. I have read stories where people that have starved have done the same thing. Eventually that faded. I do think it is a big mistake for your husband to take the bone away, I think that only confirms the dog's worry in the first place and makes your husband seem aggressive to the dog. I think you need creature teacher in on this one.....I am just putting my thought in to it as well. This kind of biting is a big nono though and you have to find an answer quickly. A muzzle sounds mean but being dog bit hurts so bad, and if it is in the hand can do permanant damage. I think you are on the right track having the man spend special time with the dog, and possibly have him be the one to feed at regular meal time as well. THat will not insure that the dog will not bite a visitor in the same situation. I wish you tons of luck at finding a solution as quickly as possible.

It definitely helps to understand the behavior. We know Truman was REALLY underweight - something like 40 pounds when we first got him. I had hoped, that over time, he'd start feeling more secure that his meals would be regular. And, I do think that he is more secure...but his first reaction when he feels that his food is threatened is to bite. Can't blame him...it's probably what kept him alive on those mean streets. My husband is so willing to work with him, and wants so badly to succeed. But, one good day does not mean that Truman is completely turned around, and that's what's been happening. Does your cat STILL get aggressive? Even after all this time?

Thea

 

[smkie]

I don't think you can compare your dog to her, she was a little stink before it happened. We lovingly call her db...dat brat if you are talking to my mom and de bi...well you know what I am saying. I really think Creature teacher would have the best imput on this..I hope she reads your post soon. YOur dog's age makes me feel unsure of what to think, I can only compare situations to what I have experienced before. I have had Victor for almost six months now, and he is just now showing me what kind of dog he really is, first we had to work through all the damage he had been put through. One night early on in our relationship his hyperactiveness was just out of bounds, he was exhausted but couldn't hold still for anything so I wrapped him up in a sheet, tight, sat down on the bed holding him in my arms, he struggled and wiggled and I was about to cry because I didn't understand what this dog is all about?i just needed him to hold still for even one minute. I was desperatly tired myself and so it sounds silly but I sat there rocking this sheet wrapped dog and saying the ommmmm sound. When I first made that sound he froze and stared at me, so I kept it up. He was asleep in 5 minutes. I have never had to do it again. Those first few months with Vic were rough. You would never guess it to see him now. I guess i am trying to say don't give up, but if you have company over a soft muzzle wouldn't be a bad idea until you are completely sure that your dog will not bite. I walked past a food dish in a friend's kitchen once and got four punctures on both sides of my knee. You can be bit so fast that you don't know it happened until it is over.

 

[Sakasha]

First of all Thea, I must applaud your dedication to Truman. Working at a shelter, I see so many dogs abandoned for barking, shedding, and other minor issues; and most people are quick to turn their backs on a dog with any type of agression problem. It puts a smile on my face knowing that the people at this forum love their dogs so much, and are willing to stand by them through good times, and bad.

Now, back on topic. The fact that Truman comes to you with his toys says that he is already well on his way to trusting you. Now all you need to do is build on this trust. Carry some of Truman's favorite treats around with you. Next time he's sitting near you, chewing a bone, tell him to "drop it" and offer him a treat. Don't get too close at first, as he may snap. What you want him to do is take his attention off the bone long enough to accept your treat (nicely). After he gets his treat, he can go back to the bone. What this will do is begin to show him that there is no need to guard his things from you. Do this for a few days, until he is comfortable and consistent with dropping his toys. Then, you can progress a bit ...approach him as he's laying around the house with his bone. Walk up, tell him to "drop it" and when he does, give him a treat, praise him, and walk away. Get him used to being touched while he is chewing; start with a quick pat on the head, then a scratch on the back, untill he is comfortable with you approaching him, and being next to him as he chews. Watch his body language, if his tail goes stiff, or he stops chewing, it most likely means that he's uncomfortable with the situation. Don't push him. The idea is for Truman to see you approaching as a good thing, not as a threat.

Eventually you'll want to try taking the bone from him momentarily. Again, don't do this until you are both comfortable with the idea (body language). Approach Truman, tell him "drop it", offer the treat, and when he goes to take it, pick up the bone. Hold it for a few seconds, then return it, praise him, and walk away. This will show him that "sharing" with you is a good thing (he gets a treat, and his bone back!). In time, you will be able to approach Truman and take the bone away without a problem; he will have learned that guarding things from you is not an issue.

I would advise you to do all these things with Truman before your husband. From what you've said, it seems as though he is more comfortable with you, and you obviously do not want to set him up for failure. Once you have gotten comfortable with him, let your husband try. Again, don't push him. Patience is going to be the key here.

In the meantime, if Truman growls, simply walk away. Don't take the bone, as that will only set you back, reafirming his fears, and giving him a reason to guard. It may take a while, but you should see progresss!

 

[Sakasha]

Oops! I forgot about the company issue.

The most important thing is saftey. You don't want Truman biting anyone. If you feel he is really a danger, then by all means confine him (weather it is in another room or a crate). Since you mentioned that he is extremely food motivated, I would also advise hand-feeding in this situation. It worked wonders with Dutch. You don't need to feed completely by hand as I usually do, a few handfulls per meal should do the trick.

Hold a few peices of kibble in a fist. Do not allow Truman to jump to reach them. Tell him to sit, and when he does, lower your fist (still closed) to his nose. The idea here is for him to learn to take things nicely. He should either "nose" or lick your hand to get the food. As soon as he does this, open your fist. If you want, you can teach him "wait" and/or "leave it" this way. What you are doing is teaching him to be patient and polite, "asking" for things he wants instead of just taking them. You can also inclide his food bowl in this. Drop a few peices of kibble in the bowl and let him take it. Walk around him, talk to him, pet him, always watching for body language to show that he is comfortable with what you're doing. Get him used to people being near him while he eats. It would be very unfortunate for him to be involved in an insident like smkie described above.

Above all, remember that this will take time. I've been working with Dutch since he was a 3-4 month old pup, and only recently have I come to trust him when company and food are involved. Take precautions to keep yourself, your husband, and your guests safe. Explain Trumans situation to guests so that they can act accordingly. Don't just assume that people know propper "pet ettiquite", I've learned the hard way that many don't.

And, as smkie said, I'm sure CreatureTeacher, among others will be along soon to give advice too. All I can tell you is what has worked for me, but you may find that Truman reacts better with different methods.

Good luck! If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask. And keep us posted!

 

[CreatureTeacher]

Wow, Sakasha took the words right out of my mouth! I fully agree with everything she says. (Humane society minds must think alike! It comes from trial and error, I think; react in exactly the right way or get hurt!)

The only difference of opinion I have is when you are teaching Truman to accept contact while eating. This may sound minor, but in my opinion you should not start with a pat on the head, but with a brief stroke vertically down the shoulder blade. Cultivating a comfortable touch relationship with a dog, no matter his motivations, has to be a trust exercise. As animals that communicate with body language and touch, dogs perceive even brief contact in specific areas as complex conversations. Depending on how sensitive he is, he may react worse to having his head touched than his shoulder when he's in what he considers to be a defensive position. A touch to the head in this situation can come across as a threat--the head is a sensitive and delicate area that is relatively easilly injured, and it is where his food is when he is eating. His internal alarm may go off and he may growl or bite to tell you that he is receiving your communication as a threat. A touch to the shoulder, however, poses no immediate danger to the food in his mouth or in his bowl. Shoulder blades are structural tough spots on dogs, and so an acceptable "sounding board" for communications of non-threatening equality. (You can see this if you watch two dogs who enjoy each other's company at play. Many dogs will stand facing each other with their heads just at the others' shoulder before performing a play bow or another invitation to interaction. This is a position of trust.) Lastly--and this may sound strange but stay with me--if Truman decides he needs to defend himself and your hand is on his head, he will have to execute a much more complicated maneuver to bite than if your hand is on his shoulder. He would have to pull out from under your hand, or twist his head around to snap upward. I had a very wise teacher once who told me, "A dog always knows where his teeth are." Truman will have to compensate for the extra time needed by giving himself more time from the moment he perceives a threat to the moment he returns communication, i.e. bites you. He will have to lower his standards of what constitues a threat to catch it in time. So he will be on high alert for threatening behavior. If he knows he can reach your hand quickly should it decide to steal from him, he will be more relaxed. It sounds nuts to purposefully place yourself in a position where your dog can more easilly bite you, but in this situation I think it makes sense. Truman doesn't want to bite you. He wants you to keep your hands off his stuff. He's not out to get you by any stretch, and showing him this sort of give-and-take trust will demonstrate that you're not out to get him either.

I think he'll be less likely to bite a hand on the shoulder, but I also know how important it is in this stage of your relationship that you show him that you are listening to his communications and that you are ready and willing to communicate in turn. We're speaking two different languages, and I think our accents are pretty heavy in our dogs' eyes. When you read something written by someone else, you can sometimes tell right away that English isn't their first language. It's not that you can't understand them, it's that the subtlety of the language suffers. I think subtlety tends to go right out the window when we speak Dog; we probably come across rather Tarzan-like. "Me Tarzan, you dog." Our dogs understand perfectly well that we are not other dogs, and I think they also understand that we do not speak to other humans the same way dogs speak to other dogs. But I think they really appreciate the chance to be heard, and are thankful when they realize we are doing our best to listen. And I think that can be demonstrated in a difference of a couple of inches.

It sounds to me like you are an exceptional dog-mom, and a very good person. A lot of folks would not put up with Truman, and would not be willing to help him through his issues. You should be very proud of yourself, and your husband too. And you get an extra round of applause for rescuing birds! Birds hate me. They bite me every time. I'm obviously inadvertently communicating to them, "Please bite me." So good on you for being critter-bi-lingual!

 

[Sakasha]

Thank you, CreatureTeacher, for correcting me. You are absolutely right. I wasn't considering detail when I wrote that part, just that contact between her an Truman was very improtant.

Is there anything else you would advise to help Thea with having company over? Thankfully I have has some very understanding friends who were brave enough to help me out introducing Dutch to new people in different situation, but I know that not everyone is quite so understanding of a dogs "issues". I also had a background of working with similar problems at the shelter before I took Dutch home, which I believe made things quite a bit easier for both of us. I am interested in hearing any other advice you have to share though!

 

[Thea]

Sakasha and Creature Teacher...you've both given me lots of stuff to try with Truman, and I thank you so much. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard "HE BIT! TAKE HIM BACK TO THE POUND!" ... but, I look at it this way: Somebody owes Tru a chance ... why not us? After all...we love him. The soft muzzle is also a good idea...it's better than locking him in a room (which he hates, and so do we), but will keep everyone safe.

Truman is just such a great dog...he really makes my heart smile when I see him sleeping on his bed, his toys all over the place....and I know that I made a difference for him. For this *one*. I cannot save the world, as much as I'd love to be able to do that...but Truman will never be cold, hurt, or hungry again.

And THANKYOU for working in the shelters to help the homeless animals...I so admire that.

I'll keep you updated on how it's going, and I'm sure I'm gonna have lots of questions.

Thanks again for taking time to help us out!
Thea

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

BTW--welcome to the boards!! And I didn't mean to sound as if your dog is bad . I'm sure he's a good boy.

 

[Thea]

BTW--welcome to the boards!! And I didn't mean to sound as if your dog is bad . I'm sure he's a good boy.

Thankyou for the welcome! I knew that you didn't mean Tru was "bad"...but he's certainly got some stuff going on that we need to fix. When he first came, he was more like a goat. He'd eat anything...THREE trips to the vet in the first six weeks he was here to get stuff OUT of him, or to ensure it was on it's way out. He doesn't do that anymore tho...so I think that his hunger is finally being quenched. He's also become a bit of a lard-ass too, so exercising him is huge. Willow, our rough collie was very high maintenance as a puppy so we're used to herders. With the birds, I just couldn't have any other type of dog. Truman totally lives up to the gentle collie/pyr nature where the parrots are concerned. Where Willow knows the birds are screwing with her head, Truman has not quite figured that out yet...and when Taz (african grey) says in my BEST sing songy mommy voice: "Truman, GO GET YOUR BALL" Truman lopes off and finds a ball. Brings it to Taz and drops it then sits there patiently waiting for the bird to play. Taz does her evil laugh....poor Tru..he's so clueless.

I see you have Border Collies...one of my absolute FAVORITE breeds.

Thanks again.
Thea

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

Thankyou for the welcome! I knew that you didn't mean Tru was "bad"...but he's certainly got some stuff going on that we need to fix. When he first came, he was more like a goat. He'd eat anything...THREE trips to the vet in the first six weeks he was here to get stuff OUT of him, or to ensure it was on it's way out. He doesn't do that anymore tho...so I think that his hunger is finally being quenched. He's also become a bit of a lard-ass too, so exercising him is huge. Willow, our rough collie was very high maintenance as a puppy so we're used to herders. With the birds, I just couldn't have any other type of dog. Truman totally lives up to the gentle collie/pyr nature where the parrots are concerned. Where Willow knows the birds are screwing with her head, Truman has not quite figured that out yet...and when Taz (african grey) says in my BEST sing songy mommy voice: "Truman, GO GET YOUR BALL" Truman lopes off and finds a ball. Brings it to Taz and drops it then sits there patiently waiting for the bird to play. Taz does her evil laugh....poor Tru..he's so clueless.

I see you have Border Collies...one of my absolute FAVORITE breeds.

Thanks again.
Thea

lol, he sounds like a sweetheart.

Yes, I'm a big BC lover. My girl has a little GSD in her...possibly a little Husky, but she's almost 100% Border. I love the breed....sweet, loving and cuddly yet ready to take a ten mile walk any time.