Finding a trainer question.. Bella still biting..

[Shevelle]

Hello to everyone!!

Well I know I’ve asked a few questions on here about how to get my now 13 week old puppy to stop biting.. Doberluv has been wonderful in the replies sent back to me.. Unfortunately, nothing has worked with her to stop biting.. We are going out for runs and walks, training inside only because its cold out but my Vet (who I’ve had for 30 years) seems to think she is displaying dominate behavior and he thinks we should get a trainer before she gets out of control. We have tried everything from sticking toys in her mouth when she bites, yelping and saying “Ouch”, taking her by the scuff of her neck and carrying her over to her crate like the mother would and leaving her there for 2 minutes at a time. She still comes back madder then she was before she went in.. She NEVER lets us pet her without biting and now it is getting harder and causing more lacerations. My mother is now going to work and her boss thinks she is getting beat up at home with all the bandages on her..



If we tell Bella to sit she will only sit for a treat.. Otherwise she will lunge and bite.. If we sit her in her cage after she has bit someone she lunges out and bites again.. And she is PREFECT in her crate with minimal barking for attention, we do not take her out of the crate if she is barking tho.. She destroys toys and rips them to shreds and bites on our clothes or lunges for feet.. It is so upsetting.. I feel like I’ve failed..

Our Vet suggested getting a trainer so I looked up in our location and I have spoken to a few trainers and they are scaring me.. Telling me she needs a choker collar, and electronic collar and even one telling me that they would take her and return her to me fully trained.. NO WAY!!

Anyone know of a way I can find a good trainer in my area? Also, she still does not have all her shots and my Vet said she can not go out visiting until she is 16 weeks old.. So I cant bring her to a training course yet..

Thanks all, Im sorry for all the questions..
Dawn

 

[Doberluv]

Oh God! Most vets do not know behavior. They know medicine but forget the behavior part of it. You should hear some of the things I've heard vets doing to dogs. Atrocious, horrifying! And totally against how dogs understand things.

I'm glad you won't use a choke collar or shock collar on your puppy. 13 weeks old! She's a baby. She can not be expected to completely stop nipping, jumping and acting like a puppy when he's still a puppy no more than you can expect a human toddler to stop getting into things and putting things into his mouth or having perfect manners or knowing his multipication tables. There is nothing to panic about. She is not mature. Dogs don't come automatically knowing how to act in a human household. They're animals! They need time to learn and grow up and PROPER handling to become well adjusted, obedient, well mannered, happy adults. She'll learn. Give her time. For goodness sake, most puppies aren't past puppy hood until they're 2 or 3 yrs. old. She'll stop this before then but 13 weeks is really asking a lot.

I believe I wrote to ignore the puppy or place him seperate from you for a few minutes. When I say ignore, I don't mean say, "ouch" or say anything. That is not ignoring. No eye contact, no talking to....nothing. Are you giving her a treat when she is not biting? There must be one or two seconds where she is not biting. Look up clicker training. Your delivery of a reinforcer must have good timing. How much exercise is she getting....how much obedience practice, how often, what skills? If she is more tired out, she won't be as apt to be so wild. Puppies are wild, some more than others. Start asking for a sit, but leave the treats on the counter next to you instead of in your hand. Work with her after she's had a good, hard romp outside. If she has alternative skills to do, she will do those because they're rewarding. She will begin to choose behaviors which pay off and stop the behaviors which don't. Do you show her a good hard rubber toy to chew on? A frozen teething thing they sell for puppies? Do you reinforce her for chewing on appropriate toys? Don't try to pat her if she's being wild. Don't pay attention to her until she is calm. None.

Please don't carry your puppy by her scruff. She knows you're not her mother and this can cause her to become defensive and yes, angry or afraid. She's too heavy I believe at 13 weeks to be carried by her scruff and her throat, neck and trachea can be injured.

Another thing: If you wait until until she's 16 weeks old to get her out and about, she may not have any risk of getting a disease, but do you know the risks of not being socialized? I recommend you do some research on that. You can take reasonable precautions that you don't take you dog to a dog park, pet store or other highly populated place, or a place that has had a parvo outbreak...ask around....but she needs to meet other healthy puppies, friendly, healthy adult dogs that you know, people of all shapes, colors, sizes, beards, umbrellas, different ground surfaces, traffic noises, all kinds of objects and you need to satuate without over whelming the pup before she's 16 weeks old or she will not develop properly and will be shy and afraid of everything and everyone. This can cause fear biting and a very mal adjusted, screwed up, unhappy dog. Try to make all experiences pleasant and associated with a great time and treats. If you don't do enough before 16 weeks old, her personality will be basically formed and you can not go back and re-capture that time. So the dangers of disease are there, there is a risk, but can be very slight if reasonable pre-cautions are taken. But the dangers of lack of socialization are not a risk. They're a known...a given. And they're not pretty.

PM Dr2little. She may be able to help show you how to locate a trainer in your area. I think she has some sort of list.

 

[Kayla]

Excellent post Doberluv, I just wanted to add a bit of support as I agree 100% with everything Doberluv said.

Being a first time dog owner when my new puppy Duke first came home at 8 weeks old he was literally a shark and I mean it in every sense. Any time I took him out for a walk he would literally latch onto my leg and not let go, anytime we went to play fetch with him he would bite us instead of the toys and did I mention simply walking in the house prompted an attack of our feet and legs.

This was upsetting to say the least as with those little razor blades they call puppy teeth he could do a lot of damage. I joined Chaz to look up ways to minimize this behaviour and got the same great advice and began employing it immediately. I can't say it worked right away in fact their were times where I thought I was destined to be living with an unruly shark for the next 14 odd years, however with consistency and a hell of a lot of patience now at 5 months old I can proudly say with much relief Duke has completely kicked all of those behaviours.

It is very common for puppys that young to teeth as Doberluv pointed out vets really only have an understanding of medicine not much else ( after all look at the sort of foods the sell), but you can curb the behaviour with enough patience. I also agree early socialization benefits outweigh the risks and puppy kindergarten classes are a great idea.

It never hurts to get a trainer to help walk you through how to manage these behaviours you just miss out on the socialization aspect of it when you get an in home private trainer, though you could always enrol in at least basic obedience classes later on after you consult a trainer ( just try and get him in the earlier the better).

I was just recently found a trainer for Duke as he has been exhibiting overly protective/suspicious behaviour towards strangers in public and the most important thing I was told to look for was first someone who was a certified animal behaviourist for obvious reasons as well as someone who can provide you with a list of references . You can also ask them about what type of training methods they prefer to use ( avoid anyone who uses corrections over reinforcement, such as alpha rolling, scruff shaking and so on).

You could try asking around at local pet stores, grooming facilities and by word of mouth and interview each one personally.

Kayla

 

[sam]

Yikes.
You need both help in the form of atrainer/behaviorist and education- some information to help you figure some of this out and make sure you're handling things in an effective way. Good for you for sticking to your guns and avoiding trainers who want to use a choke or shock collar on your puppy. That's the last kind of experience this pup (or any pup) needs.

A great resource for you would be the free San Francisco SPCA behavior line.
Order some GOOD books and read them asap. I think some very normal mouthy puppy behavior is getting misinterpreted and mishandled which is making it worse.

Here's the SFSPCA link read down the page to find the free behavior help line
http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/index.shtml

If you check around that site you can find a list of dog trainers from all over who have graduated from that VERY prestigious, well thought of program. Here's that link:
http://www.sfspca.org/academy/referral.shtml

If you can't find one right near you, you could try contacting the one closest to you and asking if they know of someone good closer to you.

Good luck.

 

[Love That Collie]

Ditto to all that Dobeluv said.
And one more thing, sometimes it can be darkest before the dawn!
Just stick it out and you WILL see that. I think if you find a good trainer you will see that Bella will respond. And no, I too never ask for a vet's opinion on behavior issues. I let them stick to the medical category.

 

[BSan]

My husband called himself Herbie's personal chew toy. He preferred my husbands meaty hand to anything, ours too, but nothing was like Dave's hand! Sharp little teeth! My friends warned me about the teething time. If it isn't your hand, it can be table legs, leather shoes etc. (our pup never tried those things but some do) It took many months, and some time after he lost his baby teeth until it slowed down. He also LOVED sweatshirt sleeves. My daughter left our cute new little puppy use her sweatshirt as a tug of war one time, and guess what, he started to do that, and still on occasion tries to get a sleeve (just once in awhile....he remembers!!), and he is now 69lbs of fur. He knawed on us all the time as a pup. I bought everything........the bones you put into the freezer, balls, kongs, ropes, nylabones (appropriate for age and teething), soft fleecy stuff (only when we were around to supervise), etc.
Something I figured out when my dog was a puppy, was, he had something new every week, and that kept him interested at least sometimes. We had to entice him with something better then our hands. I put some things away, and got them out and rotated, or I bought a new toy. He went through toys all the time, ripping them up. I think that is normal at that age. When I stopped buying him the kind of toys he could rip up, he seemed to want to chew on us more, so he went through alot of toys, even the ones that were supposed to be more indestructible. My niece had the same exact scenario, and she went through the shredded toys too. I had and still do have a nylabone on every floor of my house. We would hold the nylabone when he was a pup, and tried to get him to chew. It took some wear and tear off our hands. What about putting some peanutbutter on a nylabone and holding it for puppy to chew on. It helped for us to hold the bone for him. I always used to put a nylabone in his crate when we went to work, and we also gave him a treat, and put some music on the radio while we were gone. it was our routine.
My husband thought Herbie would never stop knawing on our hands. He was always pulling at our clothes, bath towels, etc. Herbie is now one year old, and we have NO problems with that anymore. I think the advise that has been given is true. I don't think it is cause for anxiety, or worry. It may be just a puppy stage, and it passes. Sometimes on to the next stage.
Our dogs next stage was destuffing fleece toys, the same hour. I stopped buying them, and he then pulled a cushion off of our old sofa and destuffed the corner.We then put up a bigger crate, and planned to put him in again while we were at work, but I tried something first. I found a few pretty indestructable pet toys. One is "Tuffie's" Pet Toys. He still has that toy. It is the best I have found yet! I also started buying fleece toys again, let him play with them while we were home, cheaper ones, and just pitched them when they were pulled apart. He loves to sink his teeth into soft things. Now as an older pup, I also bought a cube that has balls in it, and he has to pull out the balls ( satisfies the destuffing thing he wants to do). That also is only when we are home. I found another toy that he has to pull the rings off of a plush bone. We only get certain toys out when we can supervise, because he would tear them up, and most are dangerous if they decide to eat them. But, it makes for great rewards, and he absolutely can't wait until I get one of his favorite toys for him. He stopped getting after the cushions. We have to stay two steps ahead of him. It is a challenge when they are puppies, and it takes LOTs of patience, time, and creative problem solving, but worth it!! Something to keep in mind, is when puppies are teething..... perhaps their gums may be uncomfortable, just like babies. Babies cry, puppies chew. Best wishes to you and your puppy.

 

[Spiritus]

Do you have any training clubs in your area? Where I am, we have several small clubs that have facilities to train their own dogs, and teach classes to help offset the cost of the facilities. Many of these clubs are a great place to go to classes (at least around here). Instead of looking for an individual trainer, I would see if there are any clubs in your area and give them a call.

You have received excellent, excellent advice here. Your baby is a baby, and she will calm down. It sounds like she has awesome prey drive (which is something that a lot of experienced trainers look for... LOL). Teach her that when her teeth connect with you, the game is over. We do that by standing still, pulling our hands close to our body (out of reach), and making absolutely NO eye contact. The fun part about hanging on pantlegs is that the silly person in the pants move their leg to try to dislodge the puppy. That just eggs the puppy on more and can kick them into higher drive. Don't move. Don't look at her, don't talk to her - if you need to practice this, put on a tough pair of pants that you don't mind getting ripped, and practice it. Since she loves to play with moving toys (you), make her a moving toy that is more acceptable like a rope tied to a towel. Dance the towel across the floor and let her grab it, and when she does, tell her GOOD GIRL. Now, teach her to release it. Have YUMMY treats handy. When she is holding the towel (and likely pulling), all of a sudden keep the tension of the rope firm (not wiggling or you pulling back), wave the treat in front of her nose, tell her OUT, and the second she releases the toy, give her the treat, and then make the towel dance again and let her go after it again. Repeat. Give her an acceptable outlet. The key to this though is teach the OUT command at the same time.

You have not failed. Your puppy is not strange or aggressive or dominant (at this stage). Your puppy has energy and drive, and is looking at you and your clothing as a toy. I know it can seem like it's never going to end, but it will - keep at it. It will be worth it in the end.

And about vaccinations and not taking her anywhere..... two vaccinations are sufficient to protect her enough to take her to puppy class (I'm talking 8 wks and 12 wks). I wouldn't take her to a dog park yet, but training classes - ABSOLUTELY!

 

[Doberluv]

Fantastic ideas Spiritus....and with a puppy class, those pups will be vaccinated too....you can check on the policy of the trainer or club. And yes, like you said....the pup needs an outlet and an old towel or rope toy that she can chase around is loads of fun. Bsans and the others gave some great ideas too... to not have the same toys out all the time but to rotate them so they're more novel and fun. Wonderful links from Sam. I hope the others who described their puppies convinced you that although puppies are difficult at times, and maybe it doesn't help, but what you describe is normal puppy behavior. Don't forget the exercise. Tire that pup out a little bit several times a day...not to the point of sheer exhaustion, but enough to get some of the pent up stuff out along with how Spiritus described.....a constructive outlet for those drives.

 

[mjb]

Our dog was very active and very mouthy as a puppy. He was the mouthiest puppy I had ever been around. I had only had one previous puppy as an adult, and he was much milder mannered than this one. My youngest son's friends were afraid of him, and my lack of knowledge made me worry that he was going to be an aggressive dog when he got older.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. He is the sweetest dog in the world. The same kids who were scared of him, come over to play with him even when my son is not home. Everybody loves him, but that wasn't always the case!!

The reason I am posting on this thread, though, is to mention a game we played with Spanky that worked very well for his high energy and his mouthiness. Even the kids could play without getting nipped.

Spanky was notorious for jumping on the kids as they walked, grabbing their pants legs with his teeth, trying to grab their hands, etc. When he was in his high energy, zooming puppy, time of day, we would play 'soccer bottle'. We had 3 empty 2 liter Coke bottles on the kitchen floor and would start kicking one. He would come dashing to it and grab it and run. Rather than chase him or try to take it from him, we would just go to the next bottle and start kicking it around the floor. Of course, he would drop the bottle he had and run for ours. Then, we would go to the next one. We would all be exhausted by the time we stopped the game. He was always going for the bottle rather than pants legs during that game, though, and it wore him out. He loved it, and it was the only game the kids could play at times without getting nipped pretty well.

 

[Doberluv]

Great post! Yes, I had forgotten that Lyric's breeder had those plastic liter pop bottles for the pups and I used one too....you have to watch that when they get broken pieces off, to get a new one but they're loads of fun, make lots of great noises. Take the cap off first. LOL. I like the sound of your game with the two bottles. Fun!

 

[BSan]

We used plastic liter bottles too with one of our labs.......I had forgotten that. He was our wild child. He loved those bottles. They make lots of noise, and are fun. Good idea!