field lab? WHY

[dogsarebetter]

why are there field labs? what is the difference in a filed lab, and a lab from show lines?
when a judge looks at a dog (in a dog show) does she try to pick the one that can do the best job at what it was bred for?
i dont see why people breed a filed lab instead of breeding labs that are in standard. dont they do the same thing just as good?

this isnt just directed to labs, but any breed where there is another type.
should people really be breeding these "field" labs that IMO dont look like labs at all.
breeding out of standard!

maybe getting into dog shows has made me snobby. just enlighten me someone!

 

[makenzie71]

People's standards vary. Some people want a show dog. Some people want a dog that works. Though it's possible to have both, it's difficult and rare.

The labs, for example. Labs are intended to be hunting dogs. You go out and shoot a bird, the lab brings it back. The lab flushes game to be caught and so forth and so on. Some people breed the animals to promote this specific goal with no consideration to appearance...they do this because some people want a dog that does his job exceptionally well, and they don't care what he looks like while he's doing it.

 

[dogsarebetter]

i see this, but still they are breeding out of standard.
the show lab could do it just as well because that is what he was bred for, just like the others. when a judge looks at a dog they ask
"could this dog do what it was bred to do? does it fit the standard?"
not "is this dog pretty?"

i am not trying to start a debate

 

[BostonBanker]

I double dog dare you to ask the border collie people why they breed working dogs that don't always fit the standards .

I think the people breeding labs who are out there in the field, doing what they are bred to do, are doing more to "protect" the breed than those breeding show dogs with less drive and conformation that would make the job difficult. Now, I'm sure there are labs out there that, as you said, do fit the look of the show lab and can also work. In fact, there is someone on here (I'm horrible at remembering screen names) who has hunting labs that I really like the look of - I don't actually know if they are show labs, though.

I think many breeds have been altered for the show ring in a way that is detrimental to their working abilities. Even simple things like the extreme coats on dogs - really, would a working farmer in Scotland really want a dog with a coat like a show collie's? The show dog may still have the ability to do the job, but it isn't as practical a work animal.

I think ideally, all show dogs should be able to do the job they are bred for. I think, realistically, it doesn't happen often, and I'd be more inclined to support someone who is breeding strong working dogs over dogs who just show.

But then, I know nothing about dog shows I could just be an idiot.

 

[sam]

I'm not a lab person, but when I asked that question to a group of dog trainers, I was told that the way dogs are being put together for the show ring makes them too heavy, too thick to be able to do a good job in the field doing what they are supposed to be bred for- hunting. I can imagine that to be true when I see some of those really thick, heavy boned labs. They run for an hour at the park and need a nap- how would they do a long day in the field?

Loads of breeds have a split between what gets pinned in the ring and what can do a job-- ever seen a show newf ? My newfie breeder buddy says most of those dogs can't even SWIM with those massive coats and grossly oversized heads. It seem like exagerated forms of the physical standard start to become the norm and what wins so people start to breed for it. There are loads of examples dashcunds (sp), , GSD's etc. You can ofte see big differences when you see stock imported from other countries who have retained the original looks of the breed. It can be quite dramatic.

Personally I would rather own a dog who can be used for it's intended purpose rather than one who has a certain appearance because it's what gets pinned in the conformation ring. I would love to see dogs winning in conformation who can actually DO the jobs they were bred for. Seems silly to me to call a dog a "champion" when it's based solely on beauty and comes at the expence of other important traits.-- esp were that takes them away from work ability.

That's certainly the case in the US with border collies, which is why most border collie people are vehemently opposed to AKC registration of bc's and why bc's are not registered with the CKC in Canada. It so ridiculous and sad to see a border collie with an enormous puffy coat, no eye, no brain and no herding instinct--sure you've got a lovely looking black and white dog but it's no border collie.

As I said , I'm not a lab / sporting dog person so take this with a grain of salt as it applies to labs.


BB. we posted at the same time-- LOL at the bc comment. Ain't that the truth. Go join the border collie boards and introduce yourself and your new AKC bc:lol-sign:

 

[Whisper]

Agree with a lot which has been said. I guess I'll use Afghan hounds for an example. They are supposed to be great sighthounds, but people in show have been breeding so much for looks and that coat that their natural working and hunting ability is diminished.
I am one of those people that cringes at the shows breeding BCs have been subjected to.

 

[Toller_08]

Honestly, I can't picture many show type Labs hunting. They're too short and stocky. Sure, they may have some instinct, but if you ever got a chance to watch both in action you'd see right away that the field Lab excels in the field as far as instinct, stamina, energy, etc. goes. Show dogs of a lot of breeds cannot do the job they were originally bred to do as well as they could've before hand. When judges are judging a dog in the ring, they are only looking at appearances which means that more and more dogs with lack of instinct are being bred. When I get my Toller, I certainly don't want one strictly bred for show. They're still a pretty versatile breed, but now that they AKC has recognized them they're becoming more popular and already you can notice differences between the true working Tollers and the show Tollers. They may be minor, but they're there. I want a high drive, high energy, athletic dog. Something which a lot of show dogs are not. Working dogs (in the sporting group in particular), in general, are of higher trainability as they want to work to please. They also have a lot more stamina, are built more athletically, have tons more energy, etc. While show dogs are more laid back and lack work ethic. Of course there are exceptions though. Are working breeders truly breeding out of standard? Not at all, in my opinion. As far as appearances go, what in your opinion should a Lab look like (since that is the breed originally mentioned in the thread)? I believe a Labrador should be muscular, athletic looking, be somewhat tall (for running speed), etc. They should look like a dog who could go out in the field and hunt for hours on end. They should not, in my opinion, look like the AKC or CanKC says they should. Show Labs are short, stocky, semi-overweight (a lot of show Labs are the latter to show more 'substance'), and overall, lack the appearance of a true working animal. I hope that all made sense, and please remember, this is all just my opinion and I hope I didn't offend anyone (though I don't see how I could've).

I hope to show my dogs in conformation one day, so I'm not saying any of the above to offend/anger show people. However, my Tollers will also be tested to prove whether or not they can do what they're supposed to be able to do and if they can't, that dog won't ever be bred if I can have anything to do with it.

 

[tessa_s212]

BostonBaker and Toller, wonderful posts!

 

[smkie]

OUr field labs were lighter, not as heavy boned as the show dogs. They earned their champion points by hard field tests set up, very difficult, to test the dog's intelligence and instinct. My old boss would try to breed a hard driving dog to a more mellow methodical dog hoping for that perfect blend. The blend he was looking for was a labrador that had enough drive to make him a fine competitor, but easy to train, a good listener, and eager to please. He was very successful at that. His breeding ended up being Power Pete a search and seizure champ in Nebraska. I wish he could have known they came back for all when he developed alzhiemers. It is a lifetime ambition to breed a grand field dog.

I see the show labs and goldens at the off leash dog park and they are exhausted, they have to "rest"..hehe Victor never rests My labs were not quite as active as he is but darn near.

 

[mrose_s]

plus, if your showing a lab. you don't particularily want a working lab, and if your working one, you want it to work hard, not stack around all day.
i'm not sure of the physical differences however i figure that that might be the reason. a show lab would be bred to be quiet, easy to handle and basically, a good show dog. a working line is full of dogs that want to work

 

[RD]

I double dog dare you to ask the border collie people why they breed working dogs that don't always fit the standards .

I think the people breeding labs who are out there in the field, doing what they are bred to do, are doing more to "protect" the breed than those breeding show dogs with less drive and conformation that would make the job difficult. Now, I'm sure there are labs out there that, as you said, do fit the look of the show lab and can also work. In fact, there is someone on here (I'm horrible at remembering screen names) who has hunting labs that I really like the look of - I don't actually know if they are show labs, though.

I think many breeds have been altered for the show ring in a way that is detrimental to their working abilities. Even simple things like the extreme coats on dogs - really, would a working farmer in Scotland really want a dog with a coat like a show collie's? The show dog may still have the ability to do the job, but it isn't as practical a work animal.

I think ideally, all show dogs should be able to do the job they are bred for. I think, realistically, it doesn't happen often, and I'd be more inclined to support someone who is breeding strong working dogs over dogs who just show.

But then, I know nothing about dog shows I could just be an idiot.

:hail: Great post.


Rabbits,

Sure, some show-bred dogs can work wonderfully. But it isn't what they were bred for, and in many cases it's harder to find a good working dog in show lines. With generations upon generations of dogs who have been bred with only apperance in mind, you're not likely to find your next trial winner.

I look at it this way: Let's say the New York Yankees are looking for new, promising players. BUT, those players can only be white with blonde hair and blue eyes, and between the height of 5'10 and 6'3. They search like crazy and happen to find players that fit their requirements and know how to play, but in the meantime the Yankees have been beaten by the other teams who didn't put physical limitations on what players they would hire. More or less, the same thing goes for dogs. People who rely on their dogs to get a job done don't CARE what their dogs look like, so long as they are good workers.

The problem with breeding working dogs for looks is the fact that many dogs with enormous talent are discarded because they don't fit the conformation standard. Thus, the gene pool gets more and more narrow. Health problems pop up. Maybe temperament problems, too. Breeders can't control this, it's just what happens when a select few dogs are bred over and over, and their offspring bred closely together. All dogs have flaws and virtues, and both are magnified with close linebreeding and inbreeding. When the focus is on appearance, the virtues are a certain coat, or a certain color, or a certain head shape. Doesn't matter if the dog's flaws are a sour temperament, low drive or physical unsoundness. And thus show lines are born. Working ability is forgotten and aesthetics are the primary reason for breeding. Great for the people who like to show dogs, but not so great for the people who need them for working purposes. That's why there's such a split in breeds like the Border Collie and Labrador.

I'm not saying all show dogs are like this, in fact I've seen many breeds where show dogs and working dogs are one in the same. However, in MY breed, this is almost unheard of. Occasionally you see a conformation champion from working lines, but you very rarely if EVER see a herding champion from conformation lines.

Blarg. I could ramble all day. Basically, why look for a dolphin in a koi pond? If you want a trial winner or a good hunting/herding dog, look where you are most likely to find one - from lines bred exclusively for that purpose.


But I digress. The reason there is such a difference in working and show lines is FADS. Originally, I'm sure judges did pick the most sound, fit dogs that had the ideal structure for the job. However, somewhere along the line, super heavy-boned, fat dogs became the trend in the ring. In Border Collies, heavy coats and short legs became the trend. In Afghan Hounds, insanely long coats. In German Shepherds, the exaggerated flying trot gait. None of which were ever needed for working purposes. Anyway... This post is getting entirely too long.

(All JMO as always. )

 

[makenzie71]

i see this, but still they are breeding out of standard.

The problem is that the "standard" is of no real consequence in the working world...fitting the "standard" is like having a gold-plated shovel. The only people who really care about a standard are people trying to impress organizations like AKC.

 

[elegy]

plus, if your showing a lab. you don't particularily want a working lab

doesn't that strike you as incredibly sad, though? if people are (theoretically) showing dogs to determine they're breeding quality but completely ignoring the whole purpose of the breed?

it happens with *so* many breeds and i think, especially with working and sporting breeds, that it's incredibly sad.

there's a greyhound person on another group who was talking not too long ago about show greys vs coursing greys, and how the show dogs have been bred for such a different stride that they just can't kick it into top speed the way that greys that are actually run can. they way the breed is *supposed* to be able to.

 

[sam]

Wouldn't it be great if in order to become a "champion" you had to not only look like a good looking, healthy specimen of the breed but also prove the dog can do it's intended job and also prove it has a good temperment ? Oh what a world it would be.

 

[BostonBanker]

Originally Posted by mrose_s
plus, if your showing a lab. you don't particularily want a working lab


doesn't that strike you as incredibly sad, though?

Very, very sad.

 

[MomOf7]

I cant believe I missed out on this thread. I am the one with field bred labs.

Show/bench style labs are not built to hunt all day like a field bred lab. Can they do it? I dont know never hunted behind one. I have however seen them at Hunt tests and thier performances over all are poor. Not all do poorly but the majority do. I have never seen one run a field trial. Never even heard of one attempting to. Here is an example of what I saw just this year out of show/bench labs...
Bird is shot, dog is released, dog slightly joggs to the bird, sniffs it, reluctantly picks it up, jogs or walks back. Now for a water retrieve I saw at least 10 probably more show/bench labs flat out refuse to go into the water. I saw at least 15 litterally walk the whole way there and back. I saw at least 10 who wouldnt even pick up the bird, or brought it halfway back and decided to go potty and forgot what it was doing. Thier drive for prey leaves alot to be desired. There are a few, very few exceptions. I probably saw 3 or 4 that did a good job. Not quite as fast as the field bred dogs but they arent exactly built for speed.

Field bred labs are bred for hunting. Thier body style compliments what they are bred for. There are some that are a bit off on conformation. Hocked, long bodies, super long legs, small heads ect. Most breeders who breed field bred dogs do not look so much at conformation. I try to. Especially more lately.
Its hard to find well bred field bred labs who have good or perfect conformation. You look at thier pedigree, performance, production, ect and try to get the best you can for what your looking for. If I were to breed to a dog who has show titles behind him I would have a hard time finding homes for pups. I have been fortunate enough to put out some very good looking dogs that can hunt all day. Its a balancing act.
Also wanted to add that not all field bred labs like to hunt. There are some that just dont want to for whatever reason. Not that its not in them to have the drive and desire. These dogs are rare if in the right training atmosphere.

There is a big split between the two different types. Both have thier arguments on who is right and both sides have good arguments. I do not see labs becomming what they once were. They were able to show and do field trials or hunt tests. Standards for Show/bench have changed over the years. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. People who breed for field trials or hunt tests do often do not consider conformation. My idea of conformation for a lab is different than what I have been seeing. Too many of these show dogs look like long tailed rotties. This is not my idea of what a lab should look like.

Here is a show bred lab of today

Here is what they looked like in 1915 before the split

More to come......

 

[MomOf7]

Here is one of my pups. What I believe a lab should look like

Another one of my pups

Both field bred.

Here are my females

Ivy is on the right. WIlbur is on the left

Chloe

One more picture.....

 

[MomOf7]

This is molly. She is small all the way around.

I think I about covered it. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

BTW the puppy pictured below is one of Mollys pups! He is a doll!

 

[Whisper]

I much prefer the look of the field bred lab.

 

[MomOf7]

I also wanted to add that just because I prefer a field bred lab doesnt mean I dont like show/bench. I have met alot of Show/bench dogs and they have really funny cute personalities. Very lovable.