Fear Nipping?

[vaderdoo]

I have a 16 month old male scottish terrier named Fergus. We have been training at petsmart. there is an 8 year old female dog that Sets Fergus off. He gets frantic and afraid. He still listens in class and does his commands but he freaks out if this dog comes near him.
Yesterday in class he was sniffing the big male bulldog when the old female dog enter the class, when the old female entered he nipped the bulldog on the head. Isn't wasn't a full-on growling bite, he was starteled and just nipped him. the bulldog wasn't hurt he didn't even do anything he just kinda sat there. The trainer assured me that it's nothing to worry about. Just to keep giving proper commands and correction when and if he does this again.
So, later on in class we were doing come when called, fergus did it he came to me no problem. BUT... when the old female dog ran past him he freaked out like he wanted to chase her. So i corrected him. i told him to sit. he did. then i said down and he wouldn't do it. So i pulled down on his lead and he growled and nipped me. Well i was not happy and I am confused.
Is this something to worry about or should i listen to the trainer and just keep correcting with a sit command when he does this? When he freaks out he is so afraid that I don't think he understand what he is doing. What is the proper thing to do? correct him or calm him down? Help!

 

[Sweet72947]

He's redirecting agression on you (and that bulldog) because he's frustrated that he can't take it out on the female dog that scares him. Have Fergus and the female dog ever been introduced to each other? You could try that. You could also try desensitizing Fergus to that other dog. Start at a distance he's comfortable with and give him praise (and/or treats) for being calm. Slowly decrease this distance.
Good luck!

 

[vaderdoo]

Yes they were introduce the first class. I should mention that the owner of the female dog says that the dog is very dominant (spelling?). So when Fergus first met the female dog she barked and growled right in face and they had direct eye contact. the trainer told me to move Fergus away and since then he is freaked out by this dog.
I should also point out that Fergus is very friendly and polite with all other dogs except that female. When he meets a new dog he sits and waits for them to approach then gets into a down postion and lets them sniff him. Then he sniffs them and we move on.
All I really want to know is.....if it is just that one dog should I worry? I don't want him to become aggressive. The trainer says he is not agressive, just scared and frustrated. She also said if I keep training each day with him that by the age 2 he should be over all his silly puppy antics.

 

[Christin Luvs Dogs]

Ok, you have a very delicate situation here. I think that since Fergus (cute name btw) is great with all other dogs you need to defer to his judgment here. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but there are times when your dog knows things you don't know. I would respect Fergus' boundary issues without sending fear/stress messages to him. By this I mean, you don't run away when that female comes in, but you avoid in a low key way. Frankly, there are some dogs who just never get along and I have had this experience personally. I would not push the introductions, I would just avoid. Respect his space and redirect his attention.

Obviously, Fergus is a well socialized, well behaved, friendly dog from what you are saying. If the owner of the female will go so far as to say that she is "dominant" it means that she gets this reaction out of other dogs too.

Don't worry, just protect Fergus' stress levels and it will be ok.

I have to add, what silly puppy antics is the trainer talking about? Certainly not his reaction to the female? I don't think it's silly at all.

 

[vaderdoo]

I think what the trainer was trying to get across to the whole class is that you will have good training days and then days where your dog is a little rebel. Stay focused and be consistent and by the age 2 it all the rebelling and stubborn attitudes will go away.
Oh and yes the female dog does set off 2 other dogs in the class. the one little Shih Tzu barks and growls at it nonstop. the bulldog doesn't like it either. Poor old dog. I feel sorry for the owner. She rescued it and is only trying to give it a good life. But the trainer thinks there are some very old habbits that never got corrected.
Well next class if the last class and we all graduate. So I'll just keep training and correcting if needed. Since Fergus is polite to all other dogs I should just not worry about it.....but its hard when its your first puppy. I don't want him to be aggressive. I'm trying very hard to keep him happy with walks and praise and discipline when needed.

 

[casablanca1]

Oh, how adorable, I love terriers but especially Scotties. And a very good name. Now that I've gotten the gushing out of my system... A 1-year-old male dog is likely to be feeling cocky. A 1-year-old male terrier is going to be feeling cocky. A 1-year-old male Scottish terrier is going to be feeling very cocky. A terrier's question is always "want to dance?" when they meet another dog. Not all are dog-aggressive, but they're all inclined to ask the question, even if they're not going through with it. The older, larger, dominant female dog is probably freaking Fergus out because his instincts are screaming "confrontation" but when it comes to a dog who appears ready to confront him, he lacks experience and has no idea what to do next. I'd also say avoid the other dog, concentrate on training him to focus on you, and let him have a lot of pleasant experiences with other friendly dogs.

Obviously, Fergus is a well socialized, well behaved, friendly dog from what you are saying. If the owner of the female will go so far as to say that she is "dominant" it means that she gets this reaction out of other dogs too.

I dislike the implications here. Dominant dogs can be well-socialized, well-behaved and friendly too. I think Fergus is likely a charming and sweet dog, but the reason he's behaving frantically when he sees this other dog is that he's also a little dominant and wants to respond in some way to her. Dominant dogs are not flawed; they're a little more difficult to own, because they are more likely to get into trouble beccause they'll start a fight where another dog would sigh and roll over. But it's within a normal range of canine personality in a way that extreme behaviors like aggression are not.

 

[Doberluv]

I don't think you can determine that Fergus is dominant or the other dog is dominant, for that matter, just because they display these signs. A lot of dominant dogs can be on the submissive side. Dominant only means that two want the same thing and one gets it. It doesn't say HOW they get it. I've seen dogs scoot on their bellies up to another dog, lick their chins, roll on their backs to fanagle a toy away from the other....just sneak up that way and snatch the toy. This labeling of dogs as dominant when they don't know how to behave is getting off the track. Forget dominance and get on with teaching your dog how to act, how to tolerate a little frustration.

We have the discussion all the time here, where some people insist on using "corrections" (a politically correct term for aversives) to cure aggressive behavior and all kinds of behavior. As you experienced, it can back fire on you with re-directed aggression. If you continue to punish an already stressed out dog for reacting to this other dog (or some future dog which stressed Fergus out) it will likely make the reactiveness worse.

I recommend you get the book, Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons. She'll take you through a step by step desensatizing program to teach Fergus that greeting all kinds of dogs can be done "politely," even if he doesn't like every dog. No dog can be expected to like every dog. You can, if you wish, avoid it by teaching him some calming signals on cue and keeping distance from trigger dogs. But "correcting" with a collar yank or scolding is not going to make him feel any better about what is stressing him out. It will make him associate the other dog with an even more rotten time. "Oh Gosh! There's that dog. She makes my life miserable. Grrrrrr!" Instead, turn the bad thing into a good thing.

By the way, I have a dog reactive dog when he's on a leash in close proximately to another dog....not all dogs, but a lot. I wish I lived in a place where there were more dogs. I am very isolated where I live. I have so little opportunity to practice or go through a systematic, day to day practice. He's gotten much, much better than he was, but still, not a whole lot of fun at times. I simply manage it. It's interesting, but in class situations, he's fine. LOL. Just casual leash walks where he's not "working," is where he can act up. I just try to turn him sideways, get some distance, get his attention more on me. But if you have dogs you can practice with and get some help, that book has many high marks for it's effectiveness. Great reputation.

 

[otch1]

Hello vaderdoo! You have a male terrier that's approaching a year and a half of age... he's nipped a dog in class, nipped you and is aggitated when he's around another dog in class. May I ask what type of collar the trainer has your dog on? It doesn't sound to me like you're getting enough instruction on how to address this behavior. It isn't something that diminishes if you ignore it. The issue I have with Petsmarts' training is it's in a store verses a "real" training building. It's often in a small gated area where the dogs are seated just 3 or 4 feet from each other and then working all exercises in that small, confined area. Is that the case at this store? If so, I would be hesitant to let my dog socialize in this environment, be forced into down stays next to the others, ect. I am hoping that when you finish this beginning class you will then go to a training school, sit in on some of their classes to observe and possibly do a "Beyond Basics" class with them.

 

[vaderdoo]

I have Fergus in a Gentle Leader halti. It works great.
The training class is exactly how you discribed and with 8 people in the class and 6 of them being big dogs there is no room. persmarts theory is this helps the dog to learn while being distracted. Well Fergus was beyond distracted. He was Frightened. I told the trainer that I didn't think Fergus was having a good experience. She said as long as he is learning then its ok. It was challenging to keep his attention on me because he seemed confused and frustrated.
There is one class left and for now I walk him and talk to him while we walk and I keep his attention on me. If other dogs approach he sits and waits and gets lots of praise for doing that. At home I do the same thing.I train him in my backyard where his attention is on me.
I am going to check out other training facilities and maybe we can try it again with a postive experience this time.
there is only one class left and

 

[Doberluv]

The trouble is, and I think your trainer is wrong...is that when your dog is that stressed, there is no way he can be learning. When a dog is in fight or flight, he's using the autonomic nervous system. When that's in full swing, the thinking part of the brain, the cortex isn't "turned on." That is why a desensatizing process needs to be implimented. Desensatizing doesn't happen up close and personal to whatever stimulus it is which is the cause of his agitation. It has to be done from a distance at first or the dog can shut down and not learn. These bad experiences are not doing him any good. They can leave their mark. Good luck finding a new place where the trainer has more experience and behavior knoweldge AND where she doesn't tell you to "correct" your dog for showing these signs of stress or fear. Big mistake.

 

[vaderdoo]

Thank you for the advice. I had a gut feeling it just wasn't right. I kept thinking that he was too stressed out to be learning.
I'm not worried that it did any permanent damage because when we go for our walk he is fine and behaves well. He is still young and thankfully dogs live in the moment and not the past.
One more comment on petsmart training. I didn't really like the fact that an older dog was in the class. It should just be puppies or dog s under 2 years. Well thats my opnion anyway.

 

[Doberluv]

I think he'll be fine too since he has such a good feeling about most dogs. However, he is in adolescence and just around this time, maybe a little younger for smaller breeds, they are in another fear period and traumatic experiences can have lasting affects. So, it's important to protect him from super scary things and continue his socialization, associating other dogs, people, all kinds of things with a great time, being careful that a dog that sets him off doesn't do so right in his face. That's why a desensatizing plan is so important.

 

[otch1]

Hello Vader... Petsmart has a lot of problems with the environment in which they teach and the lack of experience required of most of their trainers (not all) before dealing with behavioral issues. It can be very stressful for some dogs to be thrown into a small space like this and forced into sits, downs, with a dog 3 feet from them, growling, posturing, ect. Doberluvs right, it is difficult for a stressed dog to truly learn in this envoronment. I used to have a lot of clients come to me after having done a beginning course with Petsmart, that decide not to continue to the next level, for this very reason. Hope you find a great school in your area and do your next level of training with them.

 

[otch1]

Ooops, spell check! Getting sleepy. Meant to add a Gentle Leader is great for this dog, would continue using it for awhile.