Ever Heard of a Dog Like This?

[Lizmo]

Lizzie, I love her to death and can't imagine my life without her, but she is the strangest dog I've ever dealt with.

As most know, we've been training in agility. She's doing excellent and I think if we didn't have this problem we could be trialing in a few months.

Problem: I never know when she'll have a "good day" or "bad day" in a run!!

What happens is: One day - she will have a perfect run, doing every command I give and totally in tune with me and my movements.

Another day - she won't come NEAR the agility equipment? She's totally shut-down (mind you we havn't even started) and won't come near the agility stuff. I haven't done anything new - use the same treats and toy.

It gets frustrating because I HAVE NOT DONE A THING TO MAKE HER THIS WAY! She's never been hit or yelled at while doing something. I don't understand.

I've tried everything it seems like - my trainer doesn't understand it either.

I've heard of one other dog doing this (Border Collie) where sometimes he will perform the task (in Ob or Herding) and others it's like "What?" My trainer doesn't understand this - nothing has happend to the dog, nothing.

Whats up?

 

[Sweet72947]

Is she feeling ok? Maybe she pulled a muscle or something and associates the equipment with the pain? Maybe run your hands over her hips and stuff to see if anything seems sore?

 

[Lizmo]

No, this has been going on for some time. It's nothing pain related. Because she can go for a run right after being scared like that.

 

[Sweet72947]

One other thing that comes to mind, is perhaps some days she just doesn't want to, and she's learned by acting scared that she gets what she wants. I don't have any idea on how you might break that habit though, because obviously if you try to force her, its no fun for anyone. Do you do long sessions on the equipment? Perhaps if you train for shorter periods of time, she won't feel burnt out, so to speak?

Oh, and one other thing, maybe on those bad days do some basic obedience commands, so that she doesn't get out of training altogether when she acts scared.

Hope I'm helping a little.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Is it possible animals are getting into the yard with the equipment at night? A friend had her dog permanently shut down at home for agility. Turned out the coyotes were crossing her yard some nights, and it terrified her.

 

[adojrts]

Ok, I need more info........lots of it, before I'll try to form an opinion.
How long have you been training? What does she know? (please give this info in great detail). What does she do when she shuts down (details)? When you train do you do piece work and sequences or are you running courses? How long do you train for? How and what do you do to warm up?
Are you training indoors or out? Does she do this in class or when you train alone or both?
I will probably have more questions but that is a good start.

Lynn

 

[Lizmo]

How long have you been training?

We started our first class in February? And before that I had a little plastic jump and 4ft. tunnel we would practise on at various times.


What does she know? (please give this info in great detail).

Tunnel
Tire
Jump
Walk

We've only worked on weaving a bit, but I think she basically knows what the word means to a point.





What does she do when she shuts down (details)?

She paces, tail in legs, not looking at me very much and either wants to go out the gate (and into the garage) or in the door in the backyard.
And she won't come out to the agility things.



When you train do you do piece work and sequences or are you running courses?

We work on pieces and then sequence/running through on the equipment I have (tire, tunnel, jumps).


How long do you train for?

Probably 15 mins at MOST.


How and what do you do to warm up?

Nothing, honestly. I won't do any sequences till we've done a few pieces first.


Are you training indoors or out? Does she do this in class or when you train alone or both?

Outdoors. And both, she's done it both with me and at my trainer's farm.

 

[Lizmo]

Is it possible animals are getting into the yard with the equipment at night? A friend had her dog permanently shut down at home for agility. Turned out the coyotes were crossing her yard some nights, and it terrified her.

That I know of, we don't have any of those type animals around here. And our yard is fenced so that the animal would either have to come through our neighbor's fence (with dogs) or come from the woods on the other side of us which it would have to come through other yards with dogs and fencing.

One other thing that comes to mind, is perhaps some days she just doesn't want to, and she's learned by acting scared that she gets what she wants. I don't have any idea on how you might break that habit though, because obviously if you try to force her, its no fun for anyone. Do you do long sessions on the equipment? Perhaps if you train for shorter periods of time, she won't feel burnt out, so to speak?

Oh, and one other thing, maybe on those bad days do some basic obedience commands, so that she doesn't get out of training altogether when she acts scared.

Hope I'm helping a little.

I've thought about this, but she become very submissve when this happens and she does the obedience command but will almost cower when I come over. I hate writing this because it makes it sound like I've abused her and I have not. I couldn't imagine abusing her. I've never layed a hand on her to make her cower or be scared of me.

And it's not like I take the agility things out and she becomes scared, it's out in the yard 24/7, 365 days a year.

 

[lizzybeth727]

What does she do when she shuts down (details)?

She paces, tail in legs, not looking at me very much and either wants to go out the gate (and into the garage) or in the door in the backyard.
And she won't come out to the agility things.

Has she been shutting down periodically like this since you started training in February? If not, when did it start?

What I really like to do with my dog is teach her hand touches - I put my hand out, and she touches her nose to my palm. You can move your hand around a lot to get her running and following you, and make it really fun and exciting. It's an easy behavior, but gets her focused on you and warmed up at the same time. I've used this on my dog in agility, as well as with a lot of other dogs in obedience training when they start to ignore me.

 

[Lizmo]

Been there, done that Lizzy. I've tried distracting her just to get her close to the equipment on those days she's scared. Running around like crazy, doing Ob near it, playing with a toy, ect.

No, it didn't start right away after we started taking classes. I'm not exactly sure when it started, though. But it has been going on for a while now.

Like I said earlier, I've tried all the normal things - nothing. I mean when it happens it's at random times.

 

[adojrts]

Ok, so no warm up, not good. Warms should be a combo of walking, trotting and running for at least 10 mins before anything else, you can combine this with some fun obedience/recalls, hand targets etc, then she should be warmed over one or two jumps, sending, recalls (proofing those stays) and figure 8's.
When you say that she knows, jumps, tire, tunnels and walk, how?
Can you send, recall and do run bys from any angle with individual obstacles ? Does she know how to find the entrance to the tunnel?
What about the teeter and frame?
And what about body language, have you been taught anything about that?
Are you sequences in straight lines, curves, pin wheels, speed circles or spirals?
How often do you train her and how often do you get instruction?

Lynn

 

[Lizmo]

When you say that she knows, jumps, tire, tunnels and walk, how?

Not sure I understand the question? How, uhm, I tought the tunnel by going through the 4ft tunnel and saying "tunnel" right as she's entering and then as she's going through.
Jump started with the word "Over" but got changed to "Jump".
Tire but just going through the tire at a very low hight (still is at a low hight along with the jumps) and labeling that going through/jump.
Walk started out with doing rear leg awareness on a 12 by 2 piece of wood on one brick in random places. Then got "Walk" was used for the A-Frame. And is used for the teeter. (I don't have a dog walk, or a-frame, but she's not sure about the dog walk to so we haven't practiced that for a while.)


Can you send, recall and do run bys from any angle with individual obstacles? Does she know how to find the entrance to the tunnel?

Yup to both questions!


What about the teeter and frame?

We've made good progress on the teeter. I have it at a very low hight so it doesn't move much right now. She will go to the middle and then it starts to go down and she jumps off. Now to fix that I've placed treats just going to the middle and stop there. Then a took it a bit further the next time, and so forth. She will go all the way to the end of the teeter 90% of the time.
A-Frame was a breeze for her. It's not, of course, at it's full hight yet but she flys over it with ease.

And what about body language, have you been taught anything about that?

I use hand signals to direct her the whole time. The last few times I went for a lesson we touched a bit on body placing and hand signals.
At the start I will have my hand up flat, fingers pointing to the right and and then bring it up to my body while giving her a command.

Are you sequences in straight lines, curves, pin wheels?

Just basic circles, straight lines and cirle then come into the middle and do a final jump. Nothing long or big.


How often do you train her and how often do you get instruction?

Hmm, we do little tihngs like a jump or tunnel throughout the time we are outside during play time, ect. Really training about only once a week at most.

I have only gone to about 8 classes with her and we took off the whole summer because there was no point because of the heat. Should I even consider starting again?

 

[adojrts]

When you say that she knows, jumps, tire, tunnels and walk, how?

Not sure I understand the question? How, uhm, I tought the tunnel by going through the 4ft tunnel and saying "tunnel" right as she's entering and then as she's going through.
Jump started with the word "Over" but got changed to "Jump".
Tire but just going through the tire at a very low hight (still is at a low hight along with the jumps) and labeling that going through/jump.
Walk started out with doing rear leg awareness on a 12 by 2 piece of wood on one brick in random places. Then got "Walk" was used for the A-Frame. And is used for the teeter. (I don't have a dog walk, or a-frame, but she's not sure about the dog walk to so we haven't practiced that for a while.)


Can you send, recall and do run bys from any angle with individual obstacles? Does she know how to find the entrance to the tunnel?

Yup to both questions!


What about the teeter and frame?

We've made good progress on the teeter. I have it at a very low hight so it doesn't move much right now. She will go to the middle and then it starts to go down and she jumps off. Now to fix that I've placed treats just going to the middle and stop there. Then a took it a bit further the next time, and so forth. She will go all the way to the end of the teeter 90% of the time.
A-Frame was a breeze for her. It's not, of course, at it's full hight yet but she flys over it with ease.

And what about body language, have you been taught anything about that?

I use hand signals to direct her the whole time. The last few times I went for a lesson we touched a bit on body placing and hand signals.
At the start I will have my hand up flat, fingers pointing to the right and and then bring it up to my body while giving her a command.

Are you sequences in straight lines, curves, pin wheels?

Just basic circles, straight lines and cirle then come into the middle and do a final jump. Nothing long or big.


How often do you train her and how often do you get instruction?

Hmm, we do little tihngs like a jump or tunnel throughout the time we are outside during play time, ect. Really training about only once a week at most.

I have only gone to about 8 classes with her and we took off the whole summer because there was no point because of the heat. Should I even consider starting again?

Ok, in my opinion, there are some serious holes in the training to this point. The reason she is shutting down is because she doesn't fully understand her job.
Yes start classes. (with a good instructor).
I also don't recommend that you bait the teeter and if she is bailing off at any point you need to fix that. Target training and backchaining is one of the best methods for all contact training.
Body language is critical, it should be taught as soon as you start agility training. Dogs follow the direction that our feet, knees, hips, shoulders and our heads are pointed. Just pointing a hand or finger just doesn't cut it. If you are unaware of your body language, then it will inconsistant, which will confuse your dog...........shutting down. Dogs will follow body language over a verbal 9 out of 10 times.
We also never label a piece of equipment, until the dog is doing it at speed, reliably and with confidence. If you label it when they are doing it slow, then they think that is the perform that we desire. Also if the dog is being cauious or slow, we don't say anything at all, if you give them encouragement by saying things like' Good Girl', while the performance is slow again, they think that is what we want.
If all you are using is a plank on the ground, don't label it (I wouldn't label with anything actually) with anything related to agility, certainly don't call it Walk, Frame or teeter, because it isn't any of those things or the behaviours that are trained to achive doing those pieces of equipment.
Do you have to repeat commands and does she look at you a lot while running?

Have you ever done any backchaining and do you use targets, stationary or thrown?

Do you have any good books or dvd's on training for agility?


Lynn

 

[Lizmo]

Oh, she is fast amd confident on her commands when told! Like I said it's just this out of the blue random scaredness. She has many quirks, this is just one that frustrates me the most. I guess it's just really hard to explain. On her "good days" she's fast as lightening and does every command I say (with the exception of messing up one or two times sometimes) which makes me think "How in the world can she go from this one day to totally scared out of her skin the next?"

We aren't using the plank on the ground anymore.

I rarely repeat a command. That I know of, she doesn't look at me much. She's focused as all get out on performing the command I told.

Yup, when using toys I randomly throw them after a piece is completed or sequence is finished. What do you mean by stationary and targets? I assume targets means a treat at the end of a piece (like the a-frame) teaching 2 on 2?

I probably am doing the body laguage wrong and I will work on that next time we practice. But that still doesn't explain WHY she's shutting down even BEFORE we start training in agility?

 

[adojrts]

Oh, she is fast amd confident on her commands when told! Like I said it's just this out of the blue random scaredness. She has many quirks, this is just one that frustrates me the most. I guess it's just really hard to explain. On her "good days" she's fast as lightening and does every command I say (with the exception of messing up one or two times sometimes) which makes me think "How in the world can she go from this one day to totally scared out of her skin the next?"

We aren't using the plank on the ground anymore.

I rarely repeat a command. That I know of, she doesn't look at me much. She's focused as all get out on performing the command I told.

Yup, when using toys I randomly throw them after a piece is completed or sequence is finished. What do you mean by stationary and targets? I assume targets means a treat at the end of a piece (like the a-frame) teaching 2 on 2?

I probably am doing the body laguage wrong and I will work on that next time we practice. But that still doesn't explain WHY she's shutting down even BEFORE we start training in agility?

Do you know what correct body language is? How to be static (not moving) or run while supporting a line? If you don't know, then you can't work on it. How do you know that when she 'messes up one or two times', that those were not caused by you not supporting the line/path that she is suppose to be taking? That you have rotated to much, pulled your shoulders and she 'messes up'.
A stationary target is a disk (without food on it, if you do that then you are luring) that doesn't move, you send the dog to the target, then reward by placing the bait on it, then releasing. A target can be anywhere, we use them at the end of sequences or on contacts, we use the when backchaining a sequence for many reasons but mainly to teach , go or go on, out and fore distance skills and lateral skills.

I still believe there are inconsistancies and it can explain why she doens't want to play the game of agility. We hear about dogs all the time, that will play one day and the next or the next week leave the ring before training/class has even started.

The more shy, tender, submissive and non confident a dog is the more we as trainers have to always set them up to be as close to 100% successful as possible. With some dogs, even a deep sigh from their handler/trainer in frustration can be their undoing.
Another thing to consider, if we drill the dogs over the same sequences, they get bored and its not fun. It's like someone sitting you down and wanting you to learn your ABC's all the time.
How many jumps do you have? Have you ever done any single or double box work?

 

[Lizmo]

LOL, but see Lizzie's not shy or submissive with people/dogs!

Yes, I was taught a bit of correct body laguage and I'm sure when I start going back to class we will work more on this. But I haven't put it into practice much - which is my fault. Could that be the whole problem?

Yes, I try to change it up every time we do something.

I have 5 jumps, one tire, 20ft tunnel, 12 weaves, and a teeter.

 

[adojrts]

That is good that she isn't shy or submissive with people or dogs, but sometimes if a dog has any concerns about the job they are doing or worried about making mistakes they can shut down. Even a high drive, extremely confident dog can be shut down when the handler experiences frustrations. It doesn't have to be frustration at the dog either, it can be frustrated with ourselves that the dog picks up on. I know this to be absolutely true, because it happened to my dog, when I was frustrated with me!! He ended up quitting, not wanting to perform at all and sat in the middle of the course (this happened at a trial btw), looking like I had beat him.
That is some else to consider, I have learned (the hard way) that if I am not feeling well or if I haven't had a good day etc, to not train on any level. The dogs don't know why, they don't know that it isn't because of them but they respond to it as if it was their fault and directed at them etc.

Lynn

 

[Herschel]

Ado, I agree with you. Body language is the most important part of agility training. The dog's performance will only improve if the handler can control his/her movement.

We took baby steps with Herschel. We purposefully set him up to succeed for months before we ran full sequences. He loved every minute of it. The only times he would ever get remotely discouraged was when we sent mixed signals. At first, if we messed up he would just look at us and not move. After a while (and enough success), he was drivey enough that he would bark at us if we gave a mixed signal.

It's all about practice, consistency, and most importantly--communication.

 

[adojrts]

Herschel;
There will also be people that run agility that haven't been taught body language, I know some. And there dogs just go along, if a mistake happens, the dog nor the handler gets upset or frustrated. But having said that, the teams that have the most success are the ones that have trained being aware of body language and its awesome benefits. It doesn't leave anything up to chance.
I have people start training with me that started somewhere else, they have gone through several levels and hadn't been taught body language on any level. They often tell me, that they would have had to take 'Advanced Handling', etc to learn it. I don't agree, I start training it in my foundations classes and we build on it from there. One of my best students at understanding body language is someone who attended a Body Awareness Workshop, which had nothing to do with agility or dog training!!
What is sad, is when someone (not saying that is you Lismo), that blames their dog, when the fault lies with the handler.
This past year at Regionals, my dog took an off course, I was annoyed.........
then weeks later I saw a photo when they came up on the Photographers site.........MY FAULT, I had set my dog up wrong.
Video taping every run is the smartest way to go!!!!!!!!!!

Lynn

 

[Herschel]

I have people start training with me that started somewhere else, they have gone through several levels and hadn't been taught body language on any level. They often tell me, that they would have had to take 'Advanced Handling', etc to learn it.

In our first classes, our trainer had us point out everything with exaggerated hand and hip movements. I thought it was ridiculous because Herschel obviously knew the commands. I figured, why do I need to point to it if Herschel knows what it means?

Haha. Now I know that when you're running full tilt and you're trying to get your dog to decide between the opening of a tunnel and the exit, strong arm motion and having your knee/foot in the right direction makes all the difference. Your student was at a huge benefit to have attended a body awareness class. I'm an athletic guy, but I still felt like a klutz while navigating my way through an agility course. I guess I never realized that I flail so much!