English and Australian Shepherds, when did they diverge?

[Keechak]

Thru my years of Studying Aussies I have seen many of the same antique photographs of collie type shepherds being claimed by both the Aussie and English communities. It is my personal belief that for a long time these two breeds shared the same bloodlines, and were the same dogs.

Although pedigrees from that far back (if kept at all) are now lost to time, and I do not know an Aussie alive that can trace it's written pedigree back farther than 18 generations with the dogs at the 18th generation being labeled such things as "Blue Bitch" and "Black Dog" with no real names or information attached to them.

Does anyone know what area of time can be considered an official divergence point for the two breeds?

Someone who is more familiar with English Shepherds, do you know if there were ever any Merled individuals in the breed's history?
In Aussies we did have Sable as a color until it was written out as a disqualification in the breed standard decades ago.

 

[LostAndConfused]

Taken from Shepherd's Way's website
http://www.englishshepherds.net/faq.html


History/ Ancestry --

Both breeds have ancestral roots in the shepherd's dogs from the UK, imported to US and selected by American farmers/ranchers as all purpose stock dogs. Both breeds are "American" breeds despite being labeled English & Australian. ES have a longer history of registration -- going back to 1920s. Aussies were first registered in the mid/late 1960s, I believe.

Geographically, ES had a relatively stronger presence in the eastern half of the country (south & north) & midwest (and of course down into Texas); Aussies have had a stronger presence in the west (especially California & Nevada), though the range of the two breeds overlaps.

Aussies have a much larger population (now) and a larger, more active, independent breed club (ASCA), with an emphasis on performance & conformation events -- but also supporting registry and health research.

Aussies are recognized by AKC, ES are not. The pressures created by AKC recognition and the associated culture have been discussed extensively here and elsewhere; in short, English Shepherds are fortunate to have avoided the pitfalls of the AKC.

You might say that Aussies as a breed have a stronger "mainstream" presence in the dog world... for better and for worse. To the extent that popularity tends to push all breeds into similar roles, and obscure the differences that originally defined them -- all are bred to be "good pets" -- AKC Aussies have a challenge maintaining their core identity as working farm dogs. The development of distinct "working" and "pet" (or "show") lines in that breed is one consequence.

 

[Romy]

Whoever made that infographic must be from Europe because rough and smooth collies are not separate breeds here.

 

[LostAndConfused]

Whoever made that infographic must be from Europe because rough and smooth collies are not separate breeds here.

Entirely possible. It wasn't the one I wanted, but it's the closest I could find and I was tired of looking.

 

[Keechak]

The first registry to record pedigrees for the Australian Shepherd was the National Stock Dog Registry, and they started keeping records in 1956, ASCA was then formed in 1957.

The oldest direct use of the words "Australian Shepherd" I can find currently are from a newspaper clipping in 1948 which provides a photo of a blue merle.

1917 is the first known instance I can find of a breeder, Maryland Little, producing dog's that she calls "Australian Shepherds"

Literature from the old Australian Shepherd breeders all state that Basque dogs from Spain were used in the breed. Does this differ from the English Shepherds?

 

[LostAndConfused]

I need someone more well versed in the ES breed to give me a hand here, lol.

In my opinion. The two breeds developed together in America in the early 1800s and late 1900s and were basically the same breed until the various registries started popping up. People picked sides based on what they liked in a dog and the breeds started to separate.

The first breed standard I can find (1950), from Todd Stodghill, which was used in the create of the English Shepherd Club of America, has no mention of merle. But Stodghill firmly believed that English Shepherds should be black & tan dogs and that black/tan dogs had better herding abilities. Stodghill also believe that his black/tan dogs were direct decedents of a pair of black/tan shepherd dogs that were brought over to America from England in the late 1700s/early 1800s

Due to some internal conflicts within the registry, a 2nd registry was created. The International English Shepherd Registry. the IESR eventually became The National Stock Dog Registry. I imagine there are a lot of Aussies & ESs that share similar dogs from way-back when.