E collar i want to buy? is this ok

[Doberluv]

Back to the topic of shock collars:

http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

Here's a link I strongly encourage you to read everyone. If you have uncertainty whether shock collars have no ill effect on a dog, read this. If that's not compelling enough, I'll make a list of the huge number of respected and well known organizations, behaviorists, trainers, ethologists and behavioral scientists who have studied, witnessed, used, seen and who are in support of banning these barbaric devices. Can they all be unaware of "concepts" Melanie?

When someone uses the argument that nasty people like Leerburg and Koehler say they're all right, that ought to speak for itself. Of course, people who don't mind doing this to their dog will make excuses and say that there is no or very little pain. But it doesn't work like that. Something aversive has to cause avoidance or the behavior won't stop. OR....something the dog loves has to be accessable to the dog to cause him to repeat a behavior.

You can argue till the cows come home that it is just a light tap, then it's a little harder tap but no pain, then it's a little pain, to it's quite unpleasant to it's some pain. The fact is, that in order to extinguish a behavior when using an aversive, it has to be sufficiently painful to cause avoidance. If someone doesn't get that concept, then they don't know behavior.

Just because people believe in training a dog without using avoidance techniques does not mean they don't understand concepts. Just because they don't agree with shock collars for training man's best friend, does not mean they don't understand how they work Melanie. Do you think that Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller, Patricia McConnell, Sue Garrett, Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar, biologists Ray and Lorna Coppinger and many more do not understand the concepts? I can assure you that they do not support the use of these devices for any dog for any reason.

 

[smkie]

Maxy do you want a scrawny geriatric meowing cat that if i send him anywhere will instantly be a hairless? just kidding. I have been around senile animals, if Eddie is demented then he has always been this way. There is no change in his behavior. WHen he was a young man i would stack about five pennies and set them on his forehead between his ears (two can play at this irritating game he so enjoys) and he would not acknowledge they were there. He would sit and look at me with disdain until i took them off. He tore screens saying he wanted in when the door was wide open. all i know if if i had to chose dogs or cats...dogs would win hands down. I am just not a cat person. hats off to all of you that are. I prefer my animals work like a team, i do not want to be a doormat. He has his hair now..in fact his grey hair is going white in some places. WE have moved twice with Eddie and both times he went bald down the back. HE is healthy as can be and that just amazes me for he was a sickly kitten that got infections quite often, but not for about a decade now.

 

[ToscasMom]

if if i had to chose dogs or cats...dogs would win hands down.

...and you cat knows this and has adjusted himself accordingly.

 

[smkie]

he should..he installed it in me..up until this point i liked them quite fine.

 

[ToscasMom]

he should..he installed it in me..up until this point i liked them quite fine.

Smkie, you are so cute. He is a PET, Smkie. He is reactive. The burden of influence is upon you, not him. xo.

 

[smkie]

Surely i am not the only one (in fact i know i am not) that has a cat that makes them crazy. i grew up with a siamese from hell that i loved dearly with mywhole heart. I was three and she sliced and diced me to my parents horror. My father would grab the hammer and the cat and i would run after him sobbing and bleeding and he would give her back. THat cat died when pts in my arms at a ripe old age. I had one kitten that in order to have him i had to find homes for his 7 mates and mother. They had been abandoned at the kennel i worked for. I did, and he was the most elegant wonderful creature, too beautiful for this world, and of course too fragile as the truest beauty always is. Your heart is in the right place Tosca. I understand that. You just don't know Eddie. He is unlike any animal i have ever met. HE makes Kiplings Cat that walked by himself ring with truth. HE likes Victor go figure and winds around his legs bumping his head against his side. He even gets kittenish and plays with toys on the porch next to "his" chair he thinks i brought just for him. HE isn't abused i promise you, just makes me curse in the wee hours of the morning when i want to be left alone. One thing u will appriciate about him and "his dogs". Eddie use to get beat up if he went off the property which he had a habit of doing. So when he came yowling with all his might at night i would open the door and do what he wanted "LET THE DOGS OUT" where he would stop and sit and grin as the dogs treed whomever it was that was hot on his trail this time. HE isn't stupid. JUst annoying.

 

[ToscasMom]

HE makes Kiplings Cat that walked by himself ring with truth.

ROFL!

HE likes Victor go figure and winds around his legs bumping his head against his side.

Now why do you think that is?

 

[Dreeza]

Back to the topic of shock collars:

http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

.

very interesting, thanks for posting!

I have a possibly stupid question...and yes, I just skimmed the article, but was really curious about one thing...

the paw lifting...I dont understand that. Is that a behavior associated with stress?? Oakley does this ALL the time, and IIRC, he did this before we even got the ECollar....it is like a 'pointer' like position he stands in when he is looking around.

not trying to argue anything, just trying to learn

 

[Doberluv]

You have to take these things in context. A Pointer pointing game is not the same as a dog lifing a paw when stressed. What your dog is doing may have no connection to being stressed. What those dogs in the study were described as doing were calming signals, signals dogs do when stressed to try to aliviate conflict. There are many, many calming signals that dogs use. Lifting a paw is one of them. In the context of the study, more than one sign was apparent during the experiements. Again, it needs to be taken in context. A dog lifting his foot to shake hands isn't the same either. Anyhow, in the conclusion of that study, it was confirmed by the experimenters that dogs who are shocked (not necessarily with extremely high levels) are considerably more stressed than even dogs treated harshly, but without a shock collar. They described it much more in depth. If you read it again, at least the last page or so, it will describe their body language and how they connected fear and pain to their handler and to commands, even when a shock was not delivered after....just lots of implications. These were professional handlers of police dogs and such too.

 

[smkie]

what is the rest of his body langauge when the paw is lifted..the way the tail is held, and the ears. A pointer on point is rigid and tense, like a wire you could hear hum. An unsure dog is more curled, the tail down, the ears back, the head in a flexed downard position instead of nose straight out.

 

[Doberluv]

Multiple stories and accounts, trainers' opinions about shocking dogs...some are quite "shocking."

http://www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm#From_the_Horse’s_Mouth

To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:

A thorough understanding of canine behavior.

A thorough understanding of learning theory.

Impeccable timing.

And if you have those three things, you don't need a shock collar. --Author unknown

 

[Dreeza]

what is the rest of his body langauge when the paw is lifted..the way the tail is held, and the ears. A pointer on point is rigid and tense, like a wire you could hear hum. An unsure dog is more curled, the tail down, the ears back, the head in a flexed downard position instead of nose straight out.

Thanks Dober! Makes sense! I am pretty sure Oakley isnt doing it from stress then...cept, I dont think he has pointer in him, so I dunno where he got it from,, lol

if you look closely, you can see his paw is lifted:

hehe, the day we got him!:

 

[smkie]

I think your dog is just thinking do i go do i stay.what am i going to do .here is a point http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/showgallery.php?cat=500&page=21&ppuser=2623

if the ears were down a bit and yawning..most dogs i know yawn when they are unsure of what is being asked or beginning to stress in a situation.

 

[Doberluv]

Heh heh Smkie..reminds me of a song. "Should I stay or should I go." LOL. Yes, he does look like he's just sort of resting it....getting a load off. Maybe it's just something he does. Maybe his thinking, that difficult decision is actually stressing him out a little.....kind of like I get when I look at a menu in a restaurant. Maybe he has a sore foot. LOL. Who knows. When I think about it now, my little Jose` does that quite a bit, when he's waiting for something.

All I know is that that study was conducted by some reliable people and they were looking at many scenarios, the whole picture, a lot of factors, not just singling out one thing. You'd have to read it more thoroughly probably to see what I mean.

Anyhow, Oakly is adorable. I love those pictures. What a cute puppy he was.

 

[Dreeza]

Heh heh Smkie..reminds me of a song. "Should I stay or should I go." LOL. Yes, he does look like he's just sort of resting it....getting a load off. Maybe it's just something he does. Maybe his thinking, that difficult decision is actually stressing him out a little.....kind of like I get when I look at a menu in a restaurant. Maybe he has a sore foot. LOL. Who knows. When I think about it now, my little Jose` does that quite a bit, when he's waiting for something.

All I know is that that study was conducted by some reliable people and they were looking at many scenarios, the whole picture, a lot of factors, not just singling out one thing. You'd have to read it more thoroughly probably to see what I mean.

Anyhow, Oakly is adorable. I love those pictures. What a cute puppy he was.

thanks

haha, yeah, it def just is something he does. And I know the study looked a lot more stuff...I was just surprised that lifting a paw was included. I'm gonna actually read it now...I just had to run to a meeting, so didnt have time.

I can tell you exactly what he was doing in all those pics:

1) I had said "BUNNY!" and thats what he always does, when you say that, haha

2) He saw a squirrel...I told him to stay

3) Him looking through the rose bushes for bunnies

4) k, that one i'm not positive...probably saw a squirrel...or a leaf...or a snowflake...

 

[Doberluv]

He's cute! I had a Lab/Beagle/and something else mix once and he would stand and stare at my parakeet cage and point, just like a Pointer. He'd be fixated on it. LOL.

 

[smkie]

i have a pic at home that is a great example of the stress lift, i know what they are talking about. If i can get it scanned i will.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I read your article. The very first sentence shows that what they were doing was NOT the method that I have described (and have described more than once and in depth so it seems that it would be understandable by now).

"Behavioural effects of the use of a shock collar during guard dog training of German shepherd dogs were studied. Direct reactions of 32 dogs to 107 shocks showed reactions (lowering of body posture, high pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirection aggression, tongue flicking) that suggest stress or fear or pain."

In the next section they describe how, in 107 shocks, there were 35 high sounding yelps, 23 squeels (sic), 12 screeming (sic) barks, 11 crouches, 9 high sounding barks, 8 backs lowered, 7 jumps, 6 snapping at owners, 3 shaking (amongst other reactions). ALL of these reactions are completely unseen in the low level stimulation training that I have described. If a person is getting these reactions then they're doing something very wrong.

I note that they did NOT list the levels of shock provided. I will fully agree (and I've alluded to this previously) that a shock collar can provide quite a painful amount of stimulation. But comparing a study that used obviously harsh levels of shock such as this particular study and trying to say that proves all e-collar training is inhumane would be like comparing a study of dogs who were screamed at maniacally and saying that because those dogs showed stress reactions it proves that giving any sort of verbal "no" is traumatic to the dog.

I started with the low level stimulation with Khana last July. She has never reacted with ANY of the examples listed above. At the most I get ear flicks. She is not traumatized nor does she show any fear of me. She's an extremely well-adjusted, outgoing, happy girl who loves to interact with me - in fact she is closer to me than any dog has been before. She gets decent exercise because we can go for walks in the woods and she can run and play with Trick. She loves to race around full-blast (chow people call it the "zoomies") and watching her is pure joy. The use of the e-collar, in the way I have described it, has added freedom to her life and has NOT taken anything away from her.

I talked to people I highly respect - people who have trained large numbers of dogs and who are strong advocates of clicker training - prior to making the choice to buy an e-collar. I went with a good model .. it was more expensive and yes, I would have rather not spent any money on a device like this. I did it because I wanted to give Khana the opportunity to run and play. Those who know me and have seen my training throughout the years understood completely that I had gone through all the steps I could with positive reinforcement AND they understood the nature of Khana (knowing her personally). I stepped into this method with the understanding and support of those trainers who I highly respect. This was not a casual choice of methods. I researched and I made an educated choice based on the needs of MY DOG.

You can throw out all the names you want but the reality is that you only know what these people are willing to say to the general public. I've attended clicker training classes given by a well-known trainer (I travelled down south to go to these classes) and she admitted in the seminar that she has used a shock collar and used it successfully. And these popular names you're talking about would probably say straight out that there are various techniques that work better on various dogs and that positive reinforcement is not 100% with all dogs.

BTW, I've already said that I don't agree with the methods of Koehler and Leerburg. Their methods are NOT the same type of training I have used. I don't know how much more clear I can be. Some people understand, some don't. And every time you "oh my God I could never use physical aversives" people bring up this argument, you end up getting others to explain how the method works successfully. Doesn't that go against what you really want to promote? *L*

Melanie and the non-traumatized gang in Alaska

 

[IliamnasQuest]

One more note from the linked article. Here is a quote:

"To counter misuse of the shock collar, it is proposed to ban its use for "sports", but save it for therapeutic applications, such as for suppressing hunting and killing sheep."

So even those who did the test - a test that was obviously put together using a high level of shock - agree that there IS a time and place for the use of a shock collar. Suppressing hunting would include not running off after moose, I would guess. And interestingly enough, that's exactly one of the desired results that I was seeking.

And I was able to get it using a LOW level of stimulation that did NOT elicit any pain/fear reactions as listed in the article.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Dreeza]

And I was able to get it using a LOW level of stimulation that did NOT elicit any pain/fear reactions as listed in the article.

I obviously have some experience with the e collar, and like you noted, it has given my dog a LOT more freedom and exercise, and has greatly benefited him in MANY ways. there is NO denying that. he loves nothing more than to run free, and the E collar, at the time, was the only thing that allowed it, and because of it, he can run around all he wants, and have a blast. He too, fully enjoys himself.

However, This LOW level stimulation you are talking about....

maybe your Khana was different, but as I have previously mentioned, the thought of Oakley reacting to a low level is completely laughable. Our trainer even pointed this out to us, that in his experience, Oakley was one of the dogs that he felt forced to use a much higher level on, cause Oakley simply did NOT respond to lower levels. Course, I have no clue how low of levels he used on other dogs....

Now you can argue all you want that he isn't a good trainer cause he uses the E collar..however, he has used his E collar training method on THOUSANDS of dogs, so whether his method is right or wrong is irrelevant, cause he is GOOD at training with it (if that makes sense...).

Oakley's case though proves that low level stim is NOT always effective. We, against our trainer's advice, lowered Oakley's stim level, and all we got, as you described was an ear flick, as he continued to ignore our 'come' command, and run away. (Obviously the command shouldnt have been ignored in the first place, but we were 'transferring' the training to our dad, whom Oakley doesn't listen to, and who was not there when the trainer was basically 'training' Oakley to listen to all of us). So for Oakley, when using the E collar, inflicting pain seemed to be the ONLY way to get him to respond.


Once again, for the billionth time, I truly believe that postive training, with the proper time and effort would have been 100000x more beneficial to him.